True or False Rom. 2:13

BobRyan said:

I think there is a great deal of - commentary - out there that does agree with the -- commentary -- you have linked here.

But when we look at the details in the actual text - we see a very different set of facts -- not at all "only failure".

For "only failure" we can go to Rom 3
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Paul clearly knew how to say "only failure" --

What Paul is talking about in Romans 2 - is the same thing that James says in James 2

20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


And Christ in Matt 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

And what John says in 1 John 5
1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and KEEP His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

And what John says in 1 John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

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As you said before, we have a bible, and so i just follow that.

Amen!!

Theodore A. Jones said:

OK. True or false? "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 This statement by Paul is the greatest non-christian statement that has ever been written by a true Christian.

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True, and I am not sure how you can say false without sacrificing inerrancy. This is one of the most difficult texts in the New Testament. Although many will engage in all sorts of contortions to avoid it, Romans 2:6-8 declares that final salvation is based on good works. So it may not be all that surprising that a few breaths later we get this tricky verse 13.

Although I will not get into the details in this post, I think the way out of this conundrum is to accept that, per 2:6-8, good works are indeed the "evidence" that will determine salvation, but that the "law" in verse 13 is not the Law of Moses. There are two good reasons for this:

1. Immediately after saying this, Paul talks about Gentiles who do not have the law (of Moses, presumably since the Law of Moses was only for Jews) and yet still follow "the law". So I suggest for Paul there are two Laws: the Law of Moses for Jews and which has passed away at the cross and another "law" that all can obey and need to obey.

2. We know the Law of Moses cannot save (many verses say this) so whatever the "law" in 2:13 is, it certainly cannot be the Law of Moses.

expos4ever said:

True, and I am not sure how you can say false without sacrificing inerrancy. This is one of the most difficult texts in the New Testament. Although many will engage in all sorts of contortions to avoid it, Romans 2:6-8 declares that final salvation is based on good works. .

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When we read Rom 2:13-16 it makes it clear that in the future Gospel Judgment - works will be judged and some fail while others will pass - based on works. But not because works caused the lost to be saved or caused the lost to earn salvation - rather in true Matt 7 fashion - their fruit demonstrates objectively that they WERE born again saved saints.

LOOKing at the tree - does not change the tree. It merely confirms the sort of tree that it already is.!

BobRyan said:

When we read Rom 2:13-16 it makes it clear that in the future Gospel Judgment - works will be judged and some fail while others will pass - based on works. But not because works caused the lost to be saved or caused the lost to earn salvation - rather in true Matt 7 fashion - their fruit demonstrates objectively that they WERE born again saved saints.

LOOKing at the tree - does not change the tree. It merely confirms the sort of tree that it already is.!

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I agree.

This simple sequence goes along with Romans 2:13 perfectly -

Let's make this super easy ---

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If you oppose the Commandments of God in NT times - then answer this question -

In Eph 6:2 - "honor your father and mother for this is the first commandment with a promise" -- what Law - what unit of Law is it to be found that 'honor your father and mother" is the FIRST commandment with a promise??

First commandment where?

Hint: Paul does not say "do not worry about honoring your parents - you can't do that"
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having provided the obvious answer to that question - the next point is addressed by Mark 7 declaring that God's law cannot be edited/changed by church tradition.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

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BobRyan said:

Ex 20:8-11 says the 7th day is a day of rest.
Lev 23:1-4 says it is reserved as a day of worship and is kept from sunset Friday to sundown Saturday evening.
Is 66:23 says it is to be a day of worship for "All mankind to come before Me and worship".
Mark 2:27 says it was 'made for mankind'
Rev 14:7 says to "WORSHIP Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and all that is in them"
Rev 14:12 says the saints "keep the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus"

So it is possible that you want to keep Sabbath because you know you are part of "mankind"

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Romans 8:4-9 says the saints keep the Commandments of God and of the lost who are at war with God it says "they do not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they"

By contrast - New Covenant Christians have "My LAW written on their mind and on their heart" Heb 8:6-10, Jer 31:31-33.

Which is why Paul can say "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
And is why John says "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

In other words that fact that Christ was the only sinless one - did not negate/delete the Bible doctrine about the saints keeping the Commandments of God.


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