True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[Light of the East]

In my view, what I quoted is the core of the new covenant on which the christian faith stands
If God had written his laws on the mind of a convert and placed them on their hearts they have been supernaturally changed into someone who in their mind instinctively knows how God wants them to live and in their heart they want to obey.
In view of this, is faith in Christ alone not enough righteousness for a person to attain heaven?

Not according to the Scriptures. Believing in a bunch of facts does not make you righteous. Our works make us righteous. The devils of hell know and believe all the facts about God, including that God is a Trinity. That doesn't make them righteous, does it? Scripture states that he that doeth righteousness is righteous. The word "doeth" indicates the action of doing good works..

If this change had not taken place in an individual, if they in their heart did not want to obey that would be different. But they have been born again if you like. They have been changed from a person who only seeks to please themselves into a person who in their heart wants to obey God.
Surely if someone in their heart wants to obey God, God will never cast them aside. They are secure with him. Their sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more
This would not be the case for those who have not been born again

Wrong again. Scripture states that the Holy Spirit places the Law of God into the hearts of all people, even those who have not heard of Him. (Romans 2: 13-16) Those who obey will find mercy.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I don't think its different today than then. We want to be good people, but we are always tempted and we stumble. I know I certainly struggle with sin. Christians are just as likely to worship the gods of sex, power, and money. I find that most Christians are morally mediocre and some are downright nasty. Many brought up in the Church leave the faith; I did for a while and then came back, but many leave permanently. In my life, I've known only one Christian man willing to wait until marriage for sex. I'm so gosh darn tired of fighting over it that I no longer date.

You know, I used to be protestant, but then I studied Church history, especially the Early Church. To know history is to cease to be Protestant, as the famous convert Cardinal Newman said.

I studdied church history of the first century by reading the NT Now I am non denominational. I simply call myself a christian
Christianity needs to get back to a tine before the scholar and theologian came along with all their ologies and isns. It needs to get back to the message that changed the worst of sinners into the greatest preacher of grace Thi world had ever known. Then churches wouldn't be half empty, they would all be packed out!

 

[stuart lawrence]

Not according to the Scriptures. Believing in a bunch of facts does not make you righteous. Our works make us righteous. The devils of hell know and believe all the facts about God, including that God is a Trinity. That doesn't make them righteous, does it? Scripture states that he that doeth righteousness is righteous. The word "doeth" indicates the action of doing good works..



Wrong again. Scripture states that the Holy Spirit places the Law of God into the hearts of all people, even those who have not heard of Him. (Romans 2: 13-16) Those who obey will find mercy.

According to Paul your righteousness for the whole of your christian life is faith Rom 1:17 that means the whole of your christian life. He also repeatedly states the christian has a righteousness apart from observing the law
Sin is transgression of the law 1john 3:4
Do you know what that means?

 

[Light of the East]

Butbif you tie good works to attaining heaven you'll never know if you did enough.

Did you even think about what I wrote?

I said that it is not about quantity, as if you are building up a credit sheet with God. It is about obedience, and that is an issue of the heart, not of an amount. The doing of the works that God has commanded us to do, i.e., feed the hungry, clothe the naked, care for the poor, etc., should come from a heart of love which desires to do for God that which He has asked.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Not according to the Scriptures. Believing in a bunch of facts does not make you righteous. Our works make us righteous. The devils of hell know and believe all the facts about God, including that God is a Trinity. That doesn't make them righteous, does it? Scripture states that he that doeth righteousness is righteous. The word "doeth" indicates the action of doing good works..



Wrong again. Scripture states that the Holy Spirit places the Law of God into the hearts of all people, even those who have not heard of Him. (Romans 2: 13-16) Those who obey will find mercy.

Are devils trusting in Christs shed blood at Calvary to attain heaven?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Did you even think about what I wrote?

I said that it is not about quantity, as if you are building up a credit sheet with God. It is about obedience, and that is an issue of the heart, not of an amount. The doing of the works that God has commanded us to do, i.e., feed the hungry, clothe the naked, care for the poor, etc., should come from a heart of love which desires to do for God that which He has asked.

How is a christian to be obedient?

 

[Light of the East]

I studied church history of the first century by reading the NT Now I am non denominational. I simply call myself a christian
Christianity needs to get back to a tine before the scholar and theologian came along with all their ologies and isns. It needs to get back to the message that changed the worst of sinners into the greatest preacher of grace Thi world had ever known. Then churches wouldn't be half empty, they would all be packed out!

That is not studying the Christianity of the first century. If you want to understand the Christianity of the first century, you must read the writings of the first pastors.

All you have done is come up with an interpretation of the Scriptures which you like, rather than studying what the Church and Her pastors said about the sacred writings.

 

[Light of the East]

I don't think they understand the pass mark to be righteous before God under the law. It is 100% perfect obedience, no slip ups. James 2:10, Gal3:10&11, Rom 4:14&15

Where does it say that in the Scriptures.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Not according to the Scriptures. Believing in a bunch of facts does not make you righteous. Our works make us righteous. The devils of hell know and believe all the facts about God, including that God is a Trinity. That doesn't make them righteous, does it? Scripture states that he that doeth righteousness is righteous. The word "doeth" indicates the action of doing good works..



Wrong again. Scripture states that the Holy Spirit places the Law of God into the hearts of all people, even those who have not heard of Him. (Romans 2: 13-16) Those who obey will find mercy.

You don't understand the new covenant I an afraid.
Rom9:30-33, rom3:19-23, rom3:28, phil3:9, gal:2:21, rom10:4 etc
My apologies but I'm on a mobile do cannot write them all out

 

[stuart lawrence]

That is not studying the Christianity of the first century. If you want to understand the Christianity of the first century, you must read the writings of the first pastors.

All you have done is come up with an interpretation of the Scriptures which you like, rather than studying what the Church and Her pastors said about the sacred writings.

The best way to know if a church teaches correct doctrine I to compare what they teach to scripture

 

[stuart lawrence]

Where does it say that in the Scriptures.

Read. James 2:10, gal3:10&11, rom 4:14&15

 

[stuart lawrence]

That is not studying the Christianity of the first century. If you want to understand the Christianity of the first century, you must read the writings of the first pastors.

All you have done is come up with an interpretation of the Scriptures which you like, rather than studying what the Church and Her pastors said about the sacred writings.

And who do you mean by the first pastors? I don't believe you understand Paul's message. Would you like to put it to the test?

 

[Light of the East]

The best way to know if a church teaches correct doctrine I to compare what they teach to scripture

Really?

Have you REALLY stopped to think about just how utterly ludicrous that statement is? I mean, it is world-class crazy, and here's why:

Every cult, ism, schism, and sect will take you to the Bible and show you the verses that support their faith. I've seen JW's grab a KJV and show me verse which they swear prove that Jesus is not one with the Father. I've watched two Protestants go at it in a death match over forms of baptism and who should be baptized and at what age. Both throwing Scriptures at the other fast and furious.

What you are saying is that if someone reads the Scriptures, he should come up with YOUR interpretation. Then he has it right. So what makes you the expert? What promise do you have and what authority were you given to properly interpret the Scriptures?

 

[Light of the East]

And who do you mean by the first pastors? I don't believe you understand Paul's message. Would you like to put it to the test?

The Didache of the Apostles, St. Athanasius, St. Iranaeus, St. Polycarp, etc.

 

[Light of the East]

Read. James 2:10, gal3:10&11, rom 4:14&15

Take the rest of the chapter:


14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James doesn't qualify the amount of works, nor say that they have to be perfect. But he does say that works are absolutely necessary to our spiritual health and ultimately, to inheriting heaven.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Do you deny that to be righteous before God under the law requires 100% perfect obedience of it, no slip ups

 

[stuart lawrence]

The Didache of the Apostles, St. Athanasius, St. Iranaeus, St. Polycarp, etc.

And what did you learn from those people concerning the following:
Sin is transgression of the law 1john 3:4

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in Gods sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness apart from law has been made known. Ron3:19-21

 

[stuart lawrence]

Really?

Have you REALLY stopped to think about just how utterly ludicrous that statement is? I mean, it is world-class crazy, and here's why:

Every cult, ism, schism, and sect will take you to the Bible and show you the verses that support their faith. I've seen JW's grab a KJV and show me verse which they swear prove that Jesus is not one with the Father. I've watched two Protestants go at it in a death match over forms of baptism and who should be baptized and at what age. Both throwing Scriptures at the other fast and furious.

What you are saying is that if someone reads the Scriptures, he should come up with YOUR interpretation. Then he has it right. So what makes you the expert? What promise do you have and what authority were you given to properly interpret the Scriptures?

When I became a christian i sat on the edge of my bed deep in thought. There were 6 billion people I the world, most probably smarter than me. And these people who were smarter than me followed different religions, and inside christianity there were so many different beliefs, even among Catholics, some were charadmatics some were not. So how did i fit into the grand scheme of things?
I was afraid I would be like the majority who follow religion and get it wrong( for there is no majority of all religious people who agree)
So i did the only thing I could do. I got down on my knees and asked God to show me truth through the holy spirit who leads believers into truth, and i trusted he would. Does Tha mean I have perfect knowledge, of course not, for I livi in a body of weak flesh and am not perfect. But I do believe I stand on surer ground than someone who does not in their heart rely on the holy spirit to leaf them into truth

 

[Meowzltov]

I studdied church history of the first century by reading the NT Now I am non denominational. I simply call myself a christian
Christianity needs to get back to a tine before the scholar and theologian came along with all their ologies and isns. It needs to get back to the message that changed the worst of sinners into the greatest preacher of grace Thi world had ever known. Then churches wouldn't be half empty, they would all be packed out!

You would get a lot out of studying the Apostolic Fathers: those directly taught by the Apostle or taught by those taught by the Apostles. Being so close to those original teachers, we get a lot of insight into what was taught by them -- it gives context to the scriptures, it helps us to interpret the Bible.

All non-denominational mean is that your Church doesn't report to a larger denominational headquarters, but is independent. Other than that, it could have a whole lot of different teachings.

How can you read authors like John and not recognize that he was a theologian?

My church is packed. We have room to seat about 800, and still have four Masses every weekend. In fact, we were forced to build this larger Sanctuary because the older Sanctuary simply wouldn't hold us any longer. We always have about 20 new baby Christians adults being baptized every Easter (and that's not even counting those that come into the Catholic church from other Christian churches, where I think we gain more than we lose). I credit Catholic strength to our staying true to the gospel and the moral teachings of the church in an age when other churches are compromising.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello LightoftheEast.

You made a statement that is wholly unsound.

You are reading into the verse that which you wish to see.
To present you holy and blameless does not mean that you are holy
and blameless now.

What you seem to misunderstand LofE, is what Paul taught.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of
yourselves, it is the gift of God

Notice that the word 'saved' is past tense. Also notice please, that this
salvation is a gift, which directly means, you do not earn this salvation.

The idea that we are progressing towards a holy state of being, at some
future stage is erroneous. We are holy now because Christ is Holy, we
have Christ in us, which means we have the very righteousness of Christ.

Ephesians 2
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together
with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him,
and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

This verse is also in the past tense, we have already been raised up with
Christ, we are now seated in the heavenly realms. You need to fix your gaze
on this heavenly reality.

Ephesians 2
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow
citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household.

Your citizenship has already been granted to you in Christ. Your citizenship
is not a future event, you already have the full citizenship.

Are you saying LofE, that we are not citizens of God's household yet?