True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[stuart lawrence]

Jason pleasee calm down. It is not was on my Mobil to keep with all your posts. I know you get excited if you think you might be able to trip me up somewhere but please be patient, I will be on a computer soon, then i can reel off ad quickly as is needed. Patience I a virtue!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You also brought up the point of dying in unrepentant sins. Because of your rigid outlook according to the literal letter, it is hard for you to see most of the time beyond as very limited scope.
As You know, Paul speaks in Gal2:16&17 of a new convert seeking to cross over from being a slave of sin when they come to Christ, into a slave of righteousness leading to holiness. He shows us in those verses this process takes time, it is not instantaneous. This crossing over from one state to the other happens by faith in Christ, not works of the law as Paul states.
Now suppose a man becomes a Christian. He swears like a trooper, is a habitual thief, has had affair after affair and is an alcoholic. We know according to Pauls words it will take time for this man to get to where he needs to be. Suppose he determines never to steal again, and to have no more affairs, even the bad language immediately starts to lessen so evidence of his being born again is plain to see. However, the drinking is not so simple, he is its slave. This man earnestly seeks the victory over alcohol, he is desperate to be free of it, and according to the Gospel message he is clinging to Christ and trusting him for that victory. Now it may well take time for him to see the victory he earnestly seeks, for Paul tells us this crossing over is not instantaneous. What if the man during this time drinks too much one night, gets run over by a bus on the way home and is killed. Do you think God will condemn him to hell? I do not.
Supposing the man lived, and was set free of all of the things I mentioned. One night he gets bored, goes to the pub and gets drunk once he has been released from his addiction to alcohol. This is now very different to him drinking while earnestly seeking the victory by faith in Christ of what he is a slave to. I hope you understand this.
What if the same man had been a Christian for a year, he had totally changed and been delivered from all I mentioned. He served God and was a wonderful witness of his grace and mercy. One night he learns his only child has been killed. In great sorrow he drinks far too much and gets drunk, a one off. If he died before he could sober up do you think God would condemn him to hell?
Suppose the same man I have mentioned did not change at all. He kept happily getting drunk having affair after affair, and ended up in prison for stealing, what then? He was never born again in the first place

Yes, I understand that you believe a saint has to have a life that appeares to be changed and different in order to prove that they are born again. But there are times when sin has separated man from God. Adam and Eve is just one big example. Adam's one time sin broke fellowship with God. Why do you think anyone else would be different? God is not unjust. If He says sin leads to death. That is what happens. Only God can know a person's heart. If they followed Jesus for a time and stopped following them, then that is on them. The 70 were told to rejoice that their names were written in heaven. Yet, they stopped following Jesus. Whereas the 11 continued to follow Jesus who had the words of eternal life. For names can be blotted out of the book of life.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Jason pleasee calm down. It is not was on my Mobil to keep with all your posts. I know you get excited if you think you might be able to trip me up somewhere but please be patient, I will be on a computer soon, then i can reel off ad quickly as is needed. Patience I a virtue!

I am calm and at peace. But if you need time, I surely I understand it (and give it to you - of course).

Peace be unto you.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Here's what I think. Jew or gentile is saved by faith in Christ, not obedience to the law, so there is one salvation for all. However, I chatted to an Israelite who said out of love for God he tried to keep as much of torah as possible, while recognising it had no bearing on his salvation for that solely hinged on what Jesus did for him at Calvary. I thought that was a wonderful statement

Well, we are not under the Law of Moses (Such as the ceremonal laws and the judicial laws), but that does not mean the moral laws that have been carried on into the New Covenant have been abrogated. That does not make any sense to say that. It is pure evil to say that because God cannot give a person the thinking that they are free from the consequences of doing evil. That would make God unjust and it would minimize how God views sin. For sin put Jesus Christ on the cross. It is very serious to sin those types of sins that can lead unto spiritual death or that will cause one not to inherit the Kingdom of God (Like murder, hate, theft, idolatry, etc.).


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[stuart lawrence]

Yes, I understand that you believe a saint has to have a life that appeares to be changed and different in order to prove that they are born again. But there are times when sin has separated man from God. Adam and Eve is just one big example. Adam's one time sin broke fellowship with God. Why do you think anyone else would be different? God is not unjust. If He says sin leads to death. That is what happens. Only God can know a person's heart. If they followed Jesus for a time and stopped following them, then that is on them. The 70 were told to rejoice that their names were written in heaven. Yet, they stopped following Jesus. Whereas the 11 continued to follow Jesus who had the words of eternal life. For names can be blotted out of the book of life.


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But now he had appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages TO DO AWAY WITH SIN by the sacrifice of himself heb9:26

 

[stuart lawrence]

Are

Well, we are not under the Law of Moses (Such as the ceremonal laws and the judicial laws), but that does not mean the moral laws that have been carried on into the New Covenant have been abrogated. That does not make any sense to say that. It is pure evil to say that because God cannot give a person the thinking that they are free from the consequences of doing evil. That would make God unjust.


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Are you now accusing me of believing nine of the ten commandments are not placed on our hearts? Yes or no

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But now he had appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages TO DO AWAY WITH SIN by the sacrifice of himself heb9:26

Yes, Jesus was taking away the sins of the entire world. That does not mean everyone is saved. Jesus took care of the sin problem for man so as to offer man the free gift of salvation if they want it. Salvation is free for all people openly. But there are certain conditions in receiving and keeping that free gift, though. For life even teaches us that free gifts can be destroyed if we fail to take care of them or to maintain them.


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[stuart lawrence]

Yes, Jesus was taking away the sins of the entire world. That does not mean everyone is saved. Jesus took care of the sin problem for man so as to offer man the free gift of salvation if they want it. Salvation is free for all people openly. But there are certain conditions in receiving and keeping that free gift, though. For life even teaches us that free gifts can be destroyed if we fail to take care of them or to maintain them.


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The verse says he appeared so that sin might be done away with, obviously for those who believe
As you tell me. It is up to you if you believe what is written, or if you want to change the words to make them say what you want them to day

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Are
Are you now accusing me of believing nine of the ten commandments are not placed on our hearts? Yes or no

Again, with the 10 or the 9. We have already been over this. The Law is more than just the 10 or the 9. For the disciples asked what was the greatest commandment in the law and Jesus did not respond with any of the 9 or the 10.

Besides, it does not matter if you believe these 9 moral laws are placed in your heart or not, if you teach to others that they are free from the consequences of God's laws under the New Testament that do have after-life consequences in breaking them, you are giving them a license to sin on some level.

God is not a respecter of persons. Grace and mercy is only there for those who confess and forsake sin (Proverbs 28:13).


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[Bible Highlighter]

When a person repents of their sins and accepts Jesus into their heart, and believes that He died on the cross for their sin, and was resurrected so as to give a new life in Him, they are born again spiritually. From that point Christ will then do the "good work" in them whereby He will conform a believer into His image (Thereby continuing to appy His sacrifice to their lives - i.e. the Substitionary Atonement). For even you admit that a believer has to appear to have a changed life or they are not truly born again.

However, the difference between us is that you believe a saint in some cases can die in unrepentant sin and still be saved. We also disagree in the fact by your telling others that we are not under any kind of law whatsoever salvation wise (Which is a very misleading message to give to people - whereby they will take it as a license to sin if you do not explain it properly). But even still, by your saying it is okay in some cases that a believer can die in unrepentant sin that leads unto death and still be saved, they will then begin to rationalize that they can sin all the time and be in God's good graces. That's why I disagree with your belief (in addition to it being unbiblical).


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[Bible Highlighter]

We are given a choice. We are told that if we live after the flesh, we will die. But if we thru the Spirit ..... "do mortify (destroy) the deeds of the body" (i.e. sin) ...... we shall live.

Romans 8:13 says,
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

Hebrews 5:9 says,
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"


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[Bible Highlighter]

For how many sins does it take for it to be considered wrong?

I am talking about serious and grevious sins here like murder, hate, lying, drunkenness, idolatry, etc.


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[Bible Highlighter]

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;" (Matthew 13:41).

Now, why is Christ sending forth his angels to remove those who are doing iniquity (sin) in HIS Kingdom?

According to this verse above, it doesn't sound like every sin (past, present and future) is paid for the believer. For only believers can be in Christ's kingdom.


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[stuart lawrence]

Again, with the 10 or the 9. We have already been over this. The Law is more than just the 10 or the 9. For the disciples asked what was the greatest commandment in the law and Jesus did not respond with any of the 9 or the 10.

Besides, it does not matter if you believe these 9 moral laws are placed in your heart or not, if you teach to others that they are free from the consequences of God's laws under the New Testament that do have after-life consequences in breaking them, you are giving them a license to sin on some level.

God is not a respecter of persons. Grace and mercy is only there for those who confess and forsake sin (Proverbs 28:13).


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I am tired of you putting words in my mouth and accusing me of what I have not stated. Once again, produce
the post where I stated what you have accused me of in the emboldened.
Thou shalt not bear false witness is one of the moral laws, a law you feel free to break whenever you wish and try to make excuses for doing so.
That is hypocrisy Jason, what Jesus said was the yeast of the pharisees

 

[stuart lawrence]

For how many sins does it take for it to be considered wrong?

I am talking about serious and grevious sins here like murder, hate, lying, drunkenness, idolatry, etc.


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QUOTE]
You are ducking responding to my last post concerning Heb 9:26 despite you saying you would respond to all my points. The bible is a big book, anyone can find a scripture to try and make it contradict another one, but it is not a wise thing to do

 

[stuart lawrence]

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;" (Matthew 13:41).

Now, why is Christ sending forth his angels to remove those who are doing iniquity (sin) in HIS Kingdom?

According to this verse above, it doesn't sound like every sin (past, present and future) is paid for the believer. For only believers can be in Christ's kingdom.


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You are ducking responding to my last post concerning Heb 9:26 despite you saying you would respond to all my points. The bible is a big book, anyone can find a scripture to try and make it contradict another one, but it is not a wise thing to do

 

[stuart lawrence]

For how many sins does it take for it to be considered wrong?

I am talking about serious and grevious sins here like murder, hate, lying, drunkenness, idolatry, etc.


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Lying!!!!

Thou shalt not bear false witness Jason!!!

 

[stuart lawrence]

Jesus said a man cannot enter the Kingdom of God without being born again. Jesus said this during the Old Testament. Jesus meant what He said. Nobody can enter the Kingdom of God without being born again. Yes, I am willing to be honest with the text and admit that in this instance in Ezekiel chapter 36 (i.e. Ezekiel 36:24-27), God's Word is saying that Israel will have a clean heart in the future. I believe God said this because they were being rebellious in the present. For God is wise who makes perfect choices and knows the future and realizes that one day His people (Israel) will one day repent and turn back to Him in the future. However, Ezekiel 36:24 does not speak for the present moment realities of God telling His people to be circumcised elsewhere in Scripture, though. For you deny all the other passages like:

Deuteronomy 10:16

"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."

Deuteronomy 30:6

"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

Jeremiah 4:4

"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings."

Ezekiel 44:9

"Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel."

Leviticus 26:41

"And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:."

Jeremiah 9:26

"Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."

Ezekiel 11:19

"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh"

Ezekiel 18:31

"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

In other words, you have to point out that there is a future reference like this to all the verses provided above here. But I don't think you will be able to do that, though. God is not a respecter of persons. God saves and operates the same thru out all time. Looking at others as being inferior is because we like to think we are better than others. Look again at the other passages in honesty (even as I have done with Ezekiel 36). For are you willing to be a man and admit when you might be wrong?


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Jason
Please reread the following post. You have ignored the points made bar one, but responded with a post asking me to then respond to all the scriptures you put in it! sorry, it doesn't work that way

 

[stuart lawrence]

I will address your insistence under the old covenant their hearts were circumcised and they were born again, and your scriptures of Duet 30:6 & Ezekiel 36:26&27 to try and prove that point. I do agree with you that Duet 30:6 & Ezekiel 36:26&27 are speaking of the same covenant.

Moses told the people:

Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer. Deut 10:16

Note he is telling the Israelites what they must do.

Whereas in Deut 30:6 he states:

The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

Notice the difference. The first statement tells the people what they must do, the second what God will do.

When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations,2 and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today,3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunesa]'>[a] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back.5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors.6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. Deut 30:1-6

Note in verses1-5 Moses has been prophesying the Israelites would be banished from the land. But though this will happen God will return them to it and bless them. It is after he says this he states God will circumcise their hearts. In Deut 10:16 Moses is telling the Israelites what they must do at the present time(under the old covenant), in 30:6 what God will do when the new covenant is in operation.

However, let us not just rely on one set of scriptures but seek for conformation:



24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. Ezekiel36:24-27


Note the prophecy concerning the Israelites being brought back from exile to the land God gave Moses for them. The prophecy of verses 26&27 immediatley follows this. This is exactly the same as the prophecy of Moses in Deut 30:6 which immediately follows the Israelites restoration to the land, something that did not happen under the old covenant. The two are in unison. Both state God will circumcise their hearts, and put a new spirit in them after they have been returned to the land from exile, not at the present time

Under the old covenant the Israelites hearts were not circumcised, most of the time they rebelled against God, got into a mess, cried out to him and he rescued them. Then they rebelled again and again in an almost never ending cycle.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Moses told the people:

Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer. Deut 10:16

Note he is telling the Israelites what they must do.

Whereas in Deut 30:6 he states:

The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

Notice the difference. The first statement tells the people what they must do, the second what God will do.


Two very different things Jason, yet you have used to the two texts to try and prove a point, as if they are both saying the same thing, clearly they are not!

Now if you can produce one verse of scripture from anywhere in the old testament that states anyone circumcised their heart according to the law we can discuss it, if you cannot I have given you all the proof necessary in the above post.
As you now accept Ezekiel 36:26&27 is not speaking under the old covenant I assume you accept the same for Deut 30:6