True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[stuart lawrence]

And you will know the TRUTH and the truth shall set you free john 8:32

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe that when a person says there is no consequence in the after-life for sin for the believer, it will lead them into unrighteousness and not righteousness. Life teaches us that their consequences in what we do.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;" (Romans 1:18).

 

[stuart lawrence]

I believe certain believers can honestly struggle with sin. I believe both Samson and Solomon are saved. I believe the Tax Collector who cried out to God to have mercy on him was saved. The thief on the cross did not need to do any great deeds to be saved.

But Jesus calls sinners to repentance. Jesus is the great physician who came to heal those who are sick spiritually.

Yet, God tests others in their faith with some of those individuals falling away or those who only endure for a while. Yes, God does give us a new heart but we also still have free will, though. We still have to choose this day (and everyone after that) in whom we will serve.

For it is also equally true that God calls us to be perfect and to stop sinning, too.



....

Jason
I am sorry if you feel I have been somewhat harsh on you, but the scars run deep for me over the preaching I received in my youth, and peoples attitude at the church I went to. I apologise for at tines not responding to your posts as I should.
Feel free to reject the following if you wish. But I would ask you to reflect on what it means to have Gods laws placed on your heart and written on your mind (or placed in your most inward parts). There can be no hiding from that law because of where it is placed, would you agree with that? For those who have truly been born again they cannot use grace as a licence to sin, or happily sin and think everything will be fine. It doesn't work that way
When a born again person commits wilfull sin they suffer for doing so. They feel tremendous guilt, see unhappiness and their conscience is seered as with a hot iron. It can be no other way if you think about it for the law has been placed on their heart. It is the defining moment of a christians life. Gone is the ability to sin in ignorance, gone is the ability to sin and not care about sinning. I cannot impress upon you enough the truth of this. The longer a person commits wilfull sin the lower they go, the more despair they feel. They cannot succeed in life, for the weight of the sin is huge. A truly born again christian suffers terribly when they do not follow the path they should, and in the end they come to God as a child does a parent and asks his forgiveness for their folly.
In forty years of going to church I have never heard one sermon on the two core points on which the christian faith stands(heb 10:16&17) that must be tragic, I hope you would agree.
There is no licence to sin for the truly born again convert. But the convert is born again in the heart but not the flesh. God is not stupid, he put a failsafe mechanism in place to cut out the licence to sin:
Ye MUST be born again
Now you may consider among the people you meet who has and who has not been born again. But i can assure you, no truly born again person can happily sin without conscience, it is just not possible

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Here is where the rubber meets the road. How is your theology working in your life? Do you feel you sin less now? Do you feel that you would ever stop? Does the Bible condemn such a sin? Do you feel you are more sensitive to sin in that it hurts God? Do you see yourself becoming more loving? Do you hate sin more and more and yet love the sinner by what you believe? Can you imagine the freedom in not sinning those very serious sins anymore?

In my experience, I have seen nothing but darkness or bad fruit from those claiming they are exempt from God’s laws.

...

 

[stuart lawrence]

A christian cannot be exempt from Gods laws for they have been placed on their heart. The law remains unshakable. Only one thing was removed and it wad not the law itself:
Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness(not full stop) for everyone who believeth rom 10:4

 

[stuart lawrence]

Jesus said:
The worlds sin is unbelief in me john 16:9

He could not possibly have said that if he only died to annul a righteousness of obedience to the mosaic law. If that was the case, the statement would have to be incorrect. For the worlds sin could not just be unbelief in Jesus it would also have to be in regard to the ten commandments.
Never once did Paul differentiate between the mosaic law and the ten commandments when he stressed the christian was not under the law/they die to the law.
In fact in romans 7 when he stressed the need to die to the law he followed that up with the example of thou shalt not covet as to the reason he had to die to a law of righteousness.
Another reason he had to die to the law is because sinful passions are aroused in us by the law if we live under it. Was he speaking concerning the legalistic law when he wrote that???
The evidence I overwhelming. I am not fault finding with you when I say this jason but making a general comment. These websites need to be seen as places people can revel in their enjoyment of discussing theology. Because people do not mostly come onto them with a willingness to learn or accept they could possibly be wrong.so it is best not to take them too seriously

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But you do not believe a saint can stop sinning. They are still a slave to their sin and they are exempt from any after life consequences of that sin even if you think the saint does not desire to sin. The fact of the matter is that you still make room for sin that is serious to exist in a believer's life (with God automatically covering that evil). But God cannot condone sin that is not confessed under a Godly sorrow (See 2 Corinthians 7:10). This would make God just as guilty for letting a believer get away with declaring that they will continue in evil.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

The great preacher Charles spurgeon said we all have sin to mourn over for none is perfect but certain sins we will be clear of. It is always refreshing to hear honesty. I told you no one is perfect in their flesh and i have never met any christian who claims to be, apart from on the internet.
As a Baptist minister of 50 years stated. If we followed after the holy spirit every minute of our lives we would never sin, the reality of which escapes us all. My own opinion is it is better for a christian to be honest than to state what no one is going to believe.
You need to understand spiritual truth concerning this Jason. I have already told you how a christian crosses over from being a slave to sin when they come to Christ into a slave of righteousness leading to holiness. Notice it says leading to holiness, as Hebrews 10:14 says BEING made holy. If you are being led into holiness and being made holy you are not perfect in your flesh, if you were perfect in your flesh you would be perfectly holy,therefore you still commit sin. But you are not at that point a slave to sin according to Paul, but from what you have written you believe a person BEING made holy is still a slave to sin.
I am being made holy Jason /being led into righteousness, as I every other christian.
It is better to understand what scripture is saying and be honest than just respond with the perfect response under the literal letter. I myself used to do that all the time many years ago, my mother did until she died bless her. But now I don't
God bless

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The great preacher Charles spurgeon said we all have sin to mourn over for none is perfect but certain sins we will be clear of. It is always refreshing to hear honesty. I told you no one is perfect in their flesh and i have never met any christian who claims to be, apart from on the internet.
As a Baptist minister of 50 years stated. If we followed after the holy spirit every minute of our lives we would never sin, the reality of which escapes us all. My own opinion is it is better for a christian to be honest than to state what no one is going to believe.
You need to understand spiritual truth concerning this Jason. I have already told you how a christian crosses over from being a slave to sin when they come to Christ into a slave of righteousness leading to holiness. Notice it says leading to holiness, as Hebrews 10:14 says BEING made holy. If you are being led into holiness and being made holy you are not perfect in your flesh, if you were perfect in your flesh you would be perfectly holy,therefore you still commit sin. But you are not at that point a slave to sin according to Paul, but from what you have written you believe a person BEING made holy is still a slave to sin.
I am being made holy Jason /being led into righteousness, as I every other christian.
It is better to understand what scripture is saying and be honest than just respond with the perfect response under the literal letter. I myself used to do that all the time many years ago, my mother did until she died bless her. But now I don't
God bless

But the Bible DOES teach that one can be perfect and holy.

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48).

Jesus does not say shoot for perfection. He says be ye therefore perfect.

Elsewhere Scriptures states,

"Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy" (1 Peter 1:16).

James says,

"For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." (James 3:2).

Jesus says,

"...If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." (Matthew 19:21).

Jesus also says,

"The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." (Luke 6:40).

Paul says,

"Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:"

Paul also says,

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Philippians 3:15).

Paul also says,

"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Colossians 1:28).

"Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may standperfect and complete in all the will of God." (Colossians 4:12).

The author of Hebrews says,

"Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." (Hebrews 13:20-21).

James says,

"Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" (James 2:22).

"But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." (James 1:4).

Peter says,

"But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you." (1 Peter 5:10).

1 Peter 4:1-5
1 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles — when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. NKJV

Surely all believers can cease or stop from sin entirely according to the passage above. We either believe the LORD in what His Word says plainly, or we don’t believe Him, hence the terms: believers, or unbelievers. Paul says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24). David says he hid His Word (i.e. God''s Word) in his heart so that he may not sin against the LORD (Psalm 119:11). Jesus said he that sins is a slave to sin (John 8:34). John says he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8). John also says he that does evil hates the light (John 3:20).

Romans 12:2
"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

Is biblical perfection sinless perfection?

Religion that God our father accepts as pure and faultless is this:
To look after orphans and widows in their distresss and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world
James 1:27

Come on Jason. You have to use discernment. If even one person could have lived a truly sinless life there would have been no need for Christ to die at Calvary. You have to see deeper, to the heart of the message. Only having the literal letter is not enough
Jesus said:
Be ye perfect ad your father in heaven is perfect.
Do you take that to mean you can be perfect the same as God is perfect.
I mean this kindly Jason. Please think of what you are saying, it goes against the scriptures I gave you, which you did not respond to, and against most ministers who have ever preached.
Did spurgeon believe in a licence to sin? Did the Baptist minister believe in it? Of course not, they were just being honest and truthful
If you honestly believe you have reached the state of sinless perfection I would not be able to understand how the law could be on your heart and mind.
Please note I am not saying it I not there for you cannot be saved if it isn't. And i judge no ones salvation. But I cannot understand how someone with the law in their most inward parts can claim sinless perfection, for they cannot be in ignorance of how high the bar is set to attain the standard needed for perfect obedience

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Is biblical perfection sinless perfection?

Religion that God our father accepts as pure and faultless is this:
To look after orphans and widows in their distresss and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world
James 1:27

Come on Jason. You have to use discernment. If even one person could have lived a truly sinless life there would have been no need for Christ to die at Calvary. You have to see deeper, to the heart of the message. Only having the literal letter is not enough
Jesus said:
Be ye perfect ad your father in heaven is perfect.
Do you take that to mean you can be perfect the same as God is perfect.
I mean this kindly Jason. Please think of what you are saying, it goes against the scriptures I gave you, which you did not respond to, and against most ministers who have ever preached. Did spurgeon believe in a licence to sin? Did the Baptist minister believe in it? Of course not, they were just being honest and truthful If you honestly believe you have reached the state of sinless perfection I would not be able to understand how the law could be on your heart and mind. Please note I am not saying it I not there for you cannot be saved if it isn't. And i judge no ones salvation. But I cannot understand how someone with the law in their most inward parts can claim sinless perfection, for they cannot be in ignorance of how high the bar is set to attain the standard needed for perfect obedience

I don't seek out what popular preachers believe so as to learn the Bible. I do not look to rockstar preachers or those who are popular to get my faith. My standard is the Word of God. What does the Word say on the topic of being perfect? Well, I already listed many verses for you to choose to believe or not believe. It is your choice on which path you want to take.

As for Hebrews 10:14, this is what it says,

"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

This is talking in the past tense of those who are sanctified. It says sanctified (past tense). But even if some believers needed to go thru a sanctification process over their entire lives (because they learn slowly or they are stubborn), it does not eliminate the truth of others who can be "perfect" in the present tense.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, not all sin leads unto spiritual death, too (See 1 John 5:16-18).

....

 

[stuart lawrence]

Th

I am sorry. You are just not believing what the Bible says plainly here. As for being made holy according to Hebrews, I
I don't seek out what popular preachers believe so as to learn the Bible. I do not look to rockstar preachers or those who are popular to get my faith. My standard is the Word of God. What does the Word say on the topic of being perfect? Well, I already listed many verses for you to choose to believe or not believe. It is your choice on which path you want to take.

As for Hebrews 10:14, this is what it says,

"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

This is talking in the past tense of those who are sanctified. It says sanctified (past tense). But even if some believers needed to go thru a sanctification process over their entire lives (because they learn slowly or they are stubborn), it does not eliminate the truth of others who can be "perfect" in the present tense.


...

The niv translation is accurate as it confirms the scripture where Paul speaks of the christian being a slave of righteousness LEADING to holiness, that is the same as saying we are BEING made holy. It makes no sense to say Christs sacrifice makes you perfect forever once you reach a state of sinless perfection, for then you would not need that sacrifice, you are in error
But to make it simple

Do you ever grumble?
Do you ever moan?
Do you ever even fleetingly have an impure thought?

If someone stole something of yours would you have nothing but love in your heart for the person who stole from you and offer them more than what the already stole?
Do you perfectly love all those you come into contact with without one slip 24/7? Even those who may malign or insult you? You cannot even fleetingly step aside from perfectly loving them at all times.

You see Jason, it is easy to speak of perfection, but not if you really consider it in honesty.
A very well known evangelical minister said the standard set in the beatitudes is beyond man to achieve, it shows him how much he needs Jesus
AMEN

 

[stuart lawrence]

Also, not all sin leads unto spiritual death, too (See 1 John 5:16-18).

....

Incidentally in 40years of going to church I have met no one who attained to the standard set in the beatitudes, neither have I met anyone who has tried to obey each and every literal command of Christ, and I have worshipped at Pentecostal, Baptist, c of e methodist, non denominational charasmatic churches.
You need to get away from simply quoting the literal letter. When I chat to you I explain what much of that literal letter means, I am afraid Jason you just quote it
I'm sorry if that seems unkind but it goes to the heart of your problem
God bless

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Walking by sight is not what God wants us to do. God wants us to walk by faith. We are to trust in His Word by faith in what it says.

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded" (James 4:8).

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. (Daniel 12:10).

"And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure" (1 John 3:3).

"...our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:13-14).

"...even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness." (Romans 6:19).

The ball is in your court. You can either choose to believe the above verses plainly or change them so as to make them say what you want them to say.

Also, do you think Noah walked by sight looking around at others as a measuring stick for his faith in God? No, most certainly not.


....


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Incidentally in 40years of going to church I have met no one who attained to the standard set in the beatitudes, neither have I met anyone who has tried to obey each and every literal command of Christ, and I have worshipped at Pentecostal, Baptist, c of e methodist, non denominational charasmatic churches.
You need to get away from simply quoting the literal letter. When I chat to you I explain what much of that literal letter means, I am afraid Jason you just quote it
I'm sorry if that seems unkind but it goes to the heart of your problem
God bless

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." (Revelation 22:14).



....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Walking by sight is not what God wants us to do. God wants us to walk by faith. We are to trust in His Word by faith in what it says.

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded" (James 4:8).

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. (Daniel 12:10).

"And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure" (1 John 3:3).

"...our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:13-14).

"...even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness." (Romans 6:19).

The ball is in your court. You can either choose to believe the above verses plainly or change them so as to make them say what you want them to say.


...

Question: Who are the "double minded" in your world view?


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

Walking by sight is not what God wants us to do. God wants us to walk by faith. We are to trust in His Word by faith in what it says.

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded" (James 4:8).

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. (Daniel 12:10).

"And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure" (1 John 3:3).

"...our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:13-14).

"...even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness." (Romans 6:19).

The ball is in your court. You can either choose to believe the above verses plainly or change them so as to make them say what you want them to say.

Also, do you think Noah walked by sight looking around at others as a measuring stick for his faith in God? No, most certainly not.


....


...

Was noah sinless?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Question: Who are the "double minded" in your world view?


...

Well there are double minded Christian. They say one thing but their lives do not reflect what they insist/preach. They have one mind for public consumption and another mind for their private life

 

[stuart lawrence]

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." (Revelation 22:14).



....

Paul understood the truth Jason

Carry each others burdens and so fulfil the law of Christ

I repeat, I have never met any Christian from various denominations in forty years who has even tried to obey each and every literal command of Christ. You have a head theology that cannot possibly be lived out in your life or anyone elses. You have to address real people and real issues.

The letter always killed the spirit gives life.