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True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

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JLB777

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No. Being born again by water is in reference to how we received the seed of the Word into our hearts. See Ephesians 5:25-26 and the Parable of the sower. Also, Jesus talks about his words should abide within us. He also says men shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word of God that proceeds out of his mouth. The Bereans were more noble because they confirmed the spoken Word of God with the Written Word of God. For we are sanctified by the Word of truth. As for the Pharisees: Jesus was not putting down the Scriptures in leading men to God. He was saying the Scriptures testified of Him and they were missing it.


...

No such scripture or doctrine called born again by water.

We are born again of the incorruptible seed of the word (Gospel Message) of God.

Obeying the Gospel by repenting, (turning to God), and confessing Jesus as Lord, is how we show that we believe.

Believing = Obeying


JLB
 
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They also insist you must avoid the levitical unclean foods, inspite of Paul twice stating in Romans 14 all food is clean
Yes, over the years in discussing the Bible, people see what they want to see in the Scriptures for several different reasons:

(a) A painful experience or what they believe to be a spiritual moment with God.
(b) To seek to be seen as righteous in other's people eyes.
(c) To hold onto their sin and yet also think they are spiritual.
(d) To hold to traditions of men or a church (So as to honor man and not God).

No such scripture or doctrine called born again by water.

We are born again of the incorruptible seed of the word (Gospel Message) of God.

Obeying the Gospel by repenting, (turning to God), and confessing Jesus as Lord, is how we show that we believe.

Believing = Obeying


JLB

Yes, the action of receiving the gospel message and accepting Christ into your heart is the "hearing of the Word" in Romans 10:17.


....
 
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If ever you feel you are not getting enough debate here, there is a site. christianchat.com you could try. However, a few have been kicked out for stressing law keeping to attain heaven rather than faith in Christ. You have been warned!

Yes, I am proud to be among those who have been falsely accused and banned at Christian Chat. I was falsely banned for judging other people's salvation when I did not judge anyone personally. I was attacking a false belief and not anyone specifically. I tried to explain this by other channels but they did not seem to care. Shortly before I was banned, I was being goaded by a long life time member there so as to judge her salvation personally. I had refused to do so. No doubt this was all a part of their plan to just ban me. The purpose of a Bible discussion is so that we can discuss the Bible. If everyone agrees on everything then, there would be no discussions or debates. Over the years, I have been called some pretty bad stuff for defending what the Scriptures say plainly (Especially in regards to the topic of OSAS). People have to resort to personal attacks or in making it personal because their argument or position in Scripture is not really all that true to stand on it's own.


....
 
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stuart lawrence

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Yes, I am proud to be among those who have been falsely accused and banned at Christian Chat. I was falsely banned for judging other people's salvation when I did not judge anyone personally. I was attacking a false belief and not anyone specifically. I tried to explain this by other channels but they did not seem to care. Shortly before I was banned, I was being goaded by a long life time member there so as to judge her salvation personally. I had refused to do so. No doubt this was all a part of their plan to just ban me. The purpose of a Bible discussion is so that we can discuss the Bible. If everyone agrees on everything then, there would be no discussions or debates. Over the years, I have been called some pretty bad stuff for defending what the Scriptures say plainly (Especially in regards to the topic of OSAS). People have to resort to personal attacks or in making it personal because their argument or position in Scripture is not really all that true to stand on it's own.


....
I've been banned from there six times, and always concerning the same subject
 
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stuart lawrence

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Yes, over the years in discussing the Bible, people see what they want to see in the Scriptures for several different reasons:

(a) A painful experience or what they believe to be a spiritual moment with God.
(b) To seek to be seen as righteous in other's people eyes.
(c) To hold onto their sin and yet also think they are spiritual.
(d) To hold to traditions of men or a church (So as to honor man and not God).



Yes, the action of receiving the gospel message and accepting Christ into your heart is the "hearing of the Word" in Romans 10:17.


....
The church I grew up in was mainly filled with those who came from the more academically gifted half of society and the more affluent half also,, therefore statistically speaking they would have mainly come from more loving, secure backgrounds.
A far cry from NT times. I grew up believing the only christians who could be ministers, or have the ability to have responsibility in churches must come from those backgrounds
But that was a long time ago, not now
 
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stuart lawrence

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Biblically speaking signs wonders and miracles are an endorsement of the message being preached(acts 14:3 heb2:4) the power is in the true message.
Few ministers preach the truth of grace, why is that?
Many do not understand it
Many are afraid their flock will see it as a licence to sin
Many are afraid of the persecution they will get if they do preach it
Ministers who do preach it see their churches packed out, it can be no other way for there is great power in the truth of the cross of christ
 
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JLB777

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Biblically speaking signs wonders and miracles are an endorsement of the message being preached(acts 14:3 heb2:4) the power is in the true message.
Few ministers preach the truth of grace, why is that?
Many do not understand it
Many are afraid their flock will see it as a licence to sin
Many are afraid of the persecution they will get if they do preach it
Ministers who do preach it see their churches packed out, it can be no other way for there is great power in the truth of the cross of christ

There is a beautiful balance of both Grace and Truth to be taught and preached to God's people.

Jesus is that Balance.

The law came through Moses, but Grace and Truth came through Jesus Christ.
John 1:17

Looking neither to the right hand (legalism) nor to the left
(Lawlessness).


JLB
 
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fhansen

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I went to a Baptist church a while ago. The minister stood in the pulpit and said. Thirty years ago I became a Christian. I woke up the next morning with great assurance, for I knew I would go to heaven when I died

I chatted to a seventh day Adventist and told them I knew I would go to Heaven. They shook their head and replied. I cant say that.
The difference between the seventh day Adventist, and the minister and I was, we knew we would attain Heaven because of Christ's sacrifice for us at Calvary. The seventh day Adventist didn't know if they would obey the Ten Commandments well enough to attain Heaven
God, alone, knows with 100% certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not. Scripture tells us that both those who believe their names are in it, and those who don't, may be surprised. Humility, based on the acknowledgement of our human limitations alone, should give us pause-so that we can have both a healthy level of assurance, based on the trustworthiness of God and evidence of fruit in our lives, balanced by a healthy level of gaurdedness about ourselves, never of Him.
 
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I've been banned from there six times, and always concerning the same subject
I was no doubt banned because I preached strongly against OSAS (of which I believe to be one of the most darkest teachings within the church today). What Bible topic were you banned for?


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It is not possible for a born again christian to happily be lawless, but they can be crushed by grace not being preached
How does saying one will sin some time in the future as a sure thing not in league with lawlessness? How is denying the consequences of Matthew 6:15, 1 John 3:15, and ignoring 1 Timothy 6:3-4 not the same thing as lawlessness?

Remember, it only took one sin for Adam and Eve to be separated from God whereby we would need a Savior.




...
 
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stuart lawrence

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Did I say one will sin some time in the future? I didn't think I did.
It is my opinion that if christian says they do not sin they do not understand the standard set by Gods laws. We must differentiate between wilfull, deliberate sin, and sin committed because perfect obedience of Gods good and holy laws is beyond man to achieve. Even then, if we follow the biblical message concerning the new convert(gal2:16&17) it takes time for them to see victory over the sin they are a slave to by faith in Christ.
I heard one woman on christian chat state the moment you become a christian you are free from all sin and if you commit any sin thereafter you are being led of the devil and in danger of hell. My heart goes out to those who hear such a message, it is not biblical. As Paul says:
When we were yet without strength, Christ died for the ungodly. It is plain as day written un the verses mentioned from Galatians the justification the new convert seeks by faith in Christ in respect of crossing over from being a slave of sin to being a slave of righteousness takes time.
We are not pre programmed robots who perfectly follow the manual, but I am afraid some only see the rigid literal letter, and not beyond it to discern the message that letter contains. Hence the reason so many churches are predominantly filled with those who come from more secure, loving backgrounds and are therefore statistically less likely to have the tabboo sins everyone expects to be dealt with instantly.
Anyway that's my rant over!
 
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Did I say one will sin some time in the future? I didn't think I did.
It is my opinion that if christian says they do not sin they do not understand the standard set by Gods laws. We must differentiate between wilfull, deliberate sin, and sin committed because perfect obedience of Gods good and holy laws is beyond man to achieve. Even then, if we follow the biblical message concerning the new convert(gal2:16&17) it takes time for them to see victory over the sin they are a slave to by faith in Christ.
I heard one woman on christian chat state the moment you become a christian you are free from all sin and if you commit any sin thereafter you are being led of the devil and in danger of hell. My heart goes out to those who hear such a message, it is not biblical. As Paul says:
When we were yet without strength, Christ died for the ungodly. It is plain as day written un the verses mentioned from Galatians the justification the new convert seeks by faith in Christ in respect of crossing over from being a slave of sin to being a slave of righteousness takes time.
We are not pre programmed robots who perfectly follow the manual, but I am afraid some only see the rigid literal letter, and not beyond it to discern the message that letter contains. Hence the reason so many churches are predominantly filled with those who come from more secure, loving backgrounds and are therefore statistically less likely to have the tabboo sins everyone expects to be dealt with instantly.
Anyway that's my rant over!
But you deny a believer cannot stop sinning. Saying that you cannot help it is unbiblical and merely an excuse to sin at some point in the future. By what you said so far, I imagine you believe this can even be grevious sins (such as hate, adultery, theft, etc.). In other words, you are asking me to ignore the consequences of disobeying Matthew 6:15, 1 John 3:15, and to disregard Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:3-8, Colossians 3:5-6, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.
 
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stuart lawrence

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But you deny a believer cannot stop sinning. Saying that you cannot help it is unbiblical and merely an excuse to sin at some point in the future. By what you said so far, I imagine you believe this can even be grevious sins (such as hate, adultery, theft, etc.). In other words, you are asking me to ignore the consequences of disobeying Matthew 6:15, 1 John 3:15, and in to disregard Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:3-8, Colossians 3:5-6, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.
It is a pity you felt unable to respond to the core of the post, for it goes to the heart of the problem as to why so many churches are predominantly filled with those who come from more loving, secure backgrounds. Any christian who's heart is where it should be would want to wonder why that is and seek to remedy it
As for your list you want to accuse me of believing, only grace can bring people to obey the law that matters most. Those who only coldly look to the literal letter have less love mercy and compassion in them than do others.
Please don't tell me that is wrong Jason. I have seen it over and over again over decades
 
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Jordan Kurecki

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I believe in Eternal Security from the intitial moment of repentance and faith in the Gospel based on the following:

"he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

was God lying when he gave us that verse by Inspiration?

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

Or was he lying when he said "shall not come into condemnation"?

John 10:25-30
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

Notice that in verses 25 and 26, to be counted as one of Christ's sheep requires "belief" (faith). Christ didn't condemn them for their works; rather, he condemned them for not believing in his works.

Verse 27 says that Christ's sheep hear his voice, he knows them, and they follow him. A sheep will follow his shepherd; however, a sheep will also venture off on its own away from the shepherd and the fold. When that happens, the shepherd goes to get the sheep. When a Christian (sheep) goes out on his own, Christ comes for us...to bring us back into the fold.

Verses 28-30...are the most important in this situaiton...

  1. Christ gives us eternal life. It's eternal the moment we receive it.
  2. No man can pluck us from Christ's hand.
  3. No man can pluck us from the Father's hand.
  4. Jesus Christ and the Father are one.
I encourage you to really dig into the meaning and essence of Chapter 3:1-3 and 5:1-4 of Galatians

The problem with Galatia is that they were adding the keeping of Law to faith in Christ for salvation, Jews were saying you had to have faith AND keep the Law, God condemns that as a false gospel. It's a false gospel that adds self effort or a maintaining of the law to be justified, and really at the basic essence it's no different than teaching you can lose yours salvation. Trying to maintain your salvation is trying to "be made perfect by the flesh" You eternal life is not maintained by your self effort, it's maintained by the Spirit of Christ that has sealed you according to the book of Ephesians.

3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?



Let's paraphrase vs 2:

Did you receive salvation and the Holy Spirit by self effort, or by simple trust in the Gospel?

and vs 3:

Are you such a fool, having begun in the Spirit with childlike faith, now made perfect or complete by self effort?



Note also:

5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


in verse 1 Paul warns them about being brought under the bondage of trying to keep the Old Testament Law for justification, in your case it could be applied to you bringing yourself under the bondage and burden of "maintaining your salvation"

in verse 2, Paul tells them that their circumcision, or trying to earn righteousness through an aspect of the law, will make Christ of no effect, in other words, when you add your self effort of maintenance, Christ profits you nothing.

in vs 4, Paul rebukes the Galatians because they left the simple faith of just trusting in Christ and his work on the cross alone for salvation, in this way he tells them they have fallen from grace, by very definition grace is something we do not deserve, For you to add "maintaining" to grace, is to make grace no more grace, you have now turned it into works, Salvation is a free gift given, when you had maintenance to this gift you cause it to cease becoming grace, by very nature grace is something given to INSPITE of your actions.

Ironically, vs 4 is actually directed to people who think they have to continue though self effort and strife and battle to keep their salvation.

let's paraphrase this passage.

vs 1 Stand fast in the freedom from self effort where Christ has made us free, and be not again entangled with the yoke of bondage to self effort.

vs 2 Behold I say unto you, that if you try to maintain with works, Christ profits you nothing

vs 3 For whoever thinks maintenance is necessary, is required to maintain it perfectly without a single error

vs 4 Christ is of no value to you, who think you must maintain your salvation, you have fallen away from simply receiving salvation as a gift that you cannot do anything to earn or keep.

2nd Samuel 28:19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou (Saul)and thy sons be with me(Samuel): the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

Do you think Samuel went to hell? The bible says Saul went to Paradise with Samuel after he died. You are saying he exact opposite of what the bible CLEARLY says. So obviously yes it is possible for a believer to get saved, then at some point commit a sin they haven't repented of before they die, and still go to heaven. If I die in a car crash while thinking about fornication, I will still go to heaven, just because I haven't yet confessed that sin, does not mean Christ did not already forgive me when I first asked him to be my savior, when you ask Jesus Christ to save you, he takes away your past present and future sins at the moment you receive him as savior.

OSAS is not a licence to sin though:

1 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Love is the motivating factor for service, not fear of losing your salvation. I believe in OSAS and while I do fall and mess up, I don't use it as an excuse for sin, sin grieves me greatly because I know I fail my Lord and I become ashamed, but his love is always there motivating me to get back up and keep serving, those who live in sin and are saved, will be miserable, Saul is a perfect example of a carnal believer who grieves God's spirit.

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
 
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stuart lawrence

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I believe in Eternal Security from the intitial moment of repentance and faith in the Gospel based on the following:

"he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

was God lying when he gave us that verse by Inspiration?

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

Or was he lying when he said "shall not come into condemnation"?

John 10:25-30
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

Notice that in verses 25 and 26, to be counted as one of Christ's sheep requires "belief" (faith). Christ didn't condemn them for their works; rather, he condemned them for not believing in his works.

Verse 27 says that Christ's sheep hear his voice, he knows them, and they follow him. A sheep will follow his shepherd; however, a sheep will also venture off on its own away from the shepherd and the fold. When that happens, the shepherd goes to get the sheep. When a Christian (sheep) goes out on his own, Christ comes for us...to bring us back into the fold.

Verses 28-30...are the most important in this situaiton...

  1. Christ gives us eternal life. It's eternal the moment we receive it.
  2. No man can pluck us from Christ's hand.
  3. No man can pluck us from the Father's hand.
  4. Jesus Christ and the Father are one.
I encourage you to really dig into the meaning and essence of Chapter 3:1-3 and 5:1-4 of Galatians

The problem with Galatia is that they were adding the keeping of Law to faith in Christ for salvation, Jews were saying you had to have faith AND keep the Law, God condemns that as a false gospel. It's a false gospel that adds self effort or a maintaining of the law to be justified, and really at the basic essence it's no different than teaching you can lose yours salvation. Trying to maintain your salvation is trying to "be made perfect by the flesh" You eternal life is not maintained by your self effort, it's maintained by the Spirit of Christ that has sealed you according to the book of Ephesians.

3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?



Let's paraphrase vs 2:

Did you receive salvation and the Holy Spirit by self effort, or by simple trust in the Gospel?

and vs 3:

Are you such a fool, having begun in the Spirit with childlike faith, now made perfect or complete by self effort?



Note also:

5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


in verse 1 Paul warns them about being brought under the bondage of trying to keep the Old Testament Law for justification, in your case it could be applied to you bringing yourself under the bondage and burden of "maintaining your salvation"

in verse 2, Paul tells them that their circumcision, or trying to earn righteousness through an aspect of the law, will make Christ of no effect, in other words, when you add your self effort of maintenance, Christ profits you nothing.

in vs 4, Paul rebukes the Galatians because they left the simple faith of just trusting in Christ and his work on the cross alone for salvation, in this way he tells them they have fallen from grace, by very definition grace is something we do not deserve, For you to add "maintaining" to grace, is to make grace no more grace, you have now turned it into works, Salvation is a free gift given, when you had maintenance to this gift you cause it to cease becoming grace, by very nature grace is something given to INSPITE of your actions.

Ironically, vs 4 is actually directed to people who think they have to continue though self effort and strife and battle to keep their salvation.

let's paraphrase this passage.

vs 1 Stand fast in the freedom from self effort where Christ has made us free, and be not again entangled with the yoke of bondage to self effort.

vs 2 Behold I say unto you, that if you try to maintain with works, Christ profits you nothing

vs 3 For whoever thinks maintenance is necessary, is required to maintain it perfectly without a single error

vs 4 Christ is of no value to you, who think you must maintain your salvation, you have fallen away from simply receiving salvation as a gift that you cannot do anything to earn or keep.

2nd Samuel 28:19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou (Saul)and thy sons be with me(Samuel): the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

Do you think Samuel went to hell? The bible says Saul went to Paradise with Samuel after he died. You are saying he exact opposite of what the bible CLEARLY says. So obviously yes it is possible for a believer to get saved, then at some point commit a sin they haven't repented of before they die, and still go to heaven. If I die in a car crash while thinking about fornication, I will still go to heaven, just because I haven't yet confessed that sin, does not mean Christ did not already forgive me when I first asked him to be my savior, when you ask Jesus Christ to save you, he takes away your past present and future sins at the moment you receive him as savior.

OSAS is not a licence to sin though:

1 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Love is the motivating factor for service, not fear of losing your salvation. I believe in OSAS and while I do fall and mess up, I don't use it as an excuse for sin, sin grieves me greatly because I know I fail my Lord and I become ashamed, but his love is always there motivating me to get back up and keep serving, those who live in sin and are saved, will be miserable, Saul is a perfect example of a carnal believer who grieves God's spirit.

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Great post, however I hope you are thick skinned!
 
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Jordan Kurecki

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Great post, however I hope you are thick skinned!
Eternal Security is abundantly clear in scripture once one has a true understanding of their own sin nature and when you truly understand the power and promises of Jesus Christ.
 
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stuart lawrence

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Eternal Security is abundantly clear in scripture once one has a true understanding of their own sin nature and when you truly understand the power and promises of Jesus Christ.
The only people who can love God ad he wants them to love him, with all their heart are those who know they are secure with him. There is no true love in the belief that unless you perform perfect you are in danger of being cast into hell
 
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