True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[cuja1]

If I understand you correctly(I may not) I like what you wrote.
If we concentrate on the sin itself and focus on that, we are less likely to see the results we want. If we look to be sanctified according to the biblical truth as to how sanctification is to take place, this will result in us abstaining from sexual immorality

Thank you. That's what I was trying to say. It seems to me that people interpret this verse as God's will is for us to abstain from sexual immorality. I'm sure it is, but I think it means that it is achieved through sanctification.

One thing is clear from the verse. God's will is our sanctification. However abstinence from sexual morality is linked to this idea, I am not 100% certain. But I think it is a valid interpretation of the verse.

 

[EmSw]

Technically if you are not perfect in the flesh you break the law. Therefore you are a lawbreaker. Are you perfect I your flesh? I admit I am not in mine
However when Paul mentions the term to timothy he is speaking of people who's lifestyle is one of habitual lawlessness, they wilfully seek to do that. A christian cannot be a lawbreaker in that sense for they have been born again

I am a law-abiding citizen.

What do you consider habitual lawlessness? If a Christian has been viewing pornography on the internet for months and years, would that fall into this category? If so, then you are saying a Christian does not do this.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Sadly many go to church and do not understand the truth of the gospel message of grace. In effect they live under a law of righteousness. They see little victory over sin in their lives, for as Paul says:
Sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace.
Actually, many sincere folk have joined churches and ended up worse sinners though they earnestly want to follow Jesus. So you need to take this into account.
Who do you think God will blame if a person joins a church, isn't taught the true message of the bible and ends up as Paul did in romans ch7? The church for failing to preach the truth, or the convert?

 

[EmSw]

I interpret this verse differently.
This verse isn't saying that God's will is for us to abstain from sexual immorality. It is saying that His will is our sanctification. Period.

Then we have the word "that". We could substitute the word "that" for "so that".
If we do that, the meaning becomes sanctification enables us to abstain from sexual immorality.
"should" in this case means "can"

To me the verse is saying that God's will is for us to be sanctified so that we are able to abstain from sexual immorality.

Possible?

Would you say it is God's will for man to indulge in sexual immorality?
Why would you say it isn't God's will to abstain from sexual immorality?
Can a man be holy while indulging in sexual immorality?
Why wouldn't Paul just write His will IS our sanctification with a period after it?
What would man substitute 'that' for 'so that'?
If Paul meant 'can', why would he write 'should'?
Why would man want to add and subtract words from Paul's text?

When is a man sanctified, made holy or made pure - before abstaining from sin, or after?

Romans 6
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Paul says it is after you yield your members servants to righteousness, unto holiness. Holiness is sanctification here.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Of course, when we speak of sexual immorality we cannot just confine it to a physical act with another.
The leaders of the Pharisees I am sure didn't go round sleeping with various women. However they were full of uncleanliness on the inside. Thou shalt not covet/ lust is a law you can break without anyone but you and God knowing you are doing it.
Sadly some who go to church believe if they don't smoke, get drunk, use foul language and have extra marital affairs they will attain heaven on that basis. But of course, the Pharisees of Jesus day would have passed those tests with flying colours. I'm sure they would not have smoked if smoking had then been invented
They could rattle off the literal letter too!

 

[cuja1]

Would you say it is God's will for man to indulge in sexual immorality?
Why would you say it isn't God's will to abstain from sexual immorality?
Can a man be holy while indulging in sexual immorality?
Why wouldn't Paul just write His will IS our sanctification with a period after it?
What would man substitute 'that' for 'so that'?
If Paul meant 'can', why would he write 'should'?
Why would man want to add and subtract words from Paul's text?

When is a man sanctified, made holy or made pure - before abstaining from sin, or after?

Romans 6
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Paul says it is after you yield your members servants to righteousness, unto holiness. Holiness is sanctification here.

Let me say before answering that I have reevaluated my previous statement. That said:

Yes, I think it is God's will for us to abstain from sexual immorality.
My confusion comes from the use of the word "that". I compared them to other uses in the Bible and didn't see any examples where "that" would mean "so that". I checked out the verse in the BibleHub
http://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/4-3.htm
and it gives other ways to write this verse.

It seems that the intent was to further explain sanctification.
One translation says:
"God's will is for you to be holy, so stay away from all sexual sin."

So it looks like I was wrong about what I thought it said.

 

[Meowzltov]

How is "that" being used in this verse then?

It's not a conjunction in this sentence. It's an adverb meaning SO.
THAT
adverb

1. to such a degree; so.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&es_th=1&ie=UTF-8#q=define+that+

THAT
Adverb
12. Dialect. (used to modify an adjective or another adverb) to such an extent:
He was that weak he could hardly stand.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/that

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How do you tell the good guys from the bad guys in this life? How do we know Hitler was a bad or evil guy? Is it by his beliefs alone or by what he did? How can God condone a believer to sin by wiping away their current willful sin or rebellion done against Him? How can one not see that such a thing is evil and wrong?


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[stuart lawrence]

For by one sacrifice he made forever perfect those who are being made holy heb 10:14

If you are being made holy you are not perfect in your flesh. If you were you would bs perfectly holy. However, God sees you as perfect forever despite your imperfections for he sees the sacrifice his son made for you at Calvary, not your failure to be perfect

 

[stuart lawrence]

There is a pass mark, if you like, of obedience to the law to be righteous before God under it, and that pass mark is beyond man to achieve, for that pass mark is 100 percent perfect obedience. James 2:10 states, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.” (NIV)

James is quite clear. If you stumble at just one point under the law, it is as if you have broken all of it. In Galatians 3:10-11, Paul agrees with James:


For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’ Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because ‘the righteous will live by faith.’ (NIV)


Paul is telling us if we rely on works of the law to save us, we are under a curse, for then we would have to do everything written in the law. He states that no one could ever be justified before God this way, for they cannot perfectly obey the whole law and reach the pass mark required under it. The righteous, therefore, will live by faith.

Now some try to mix a bit of law with a bit of faith, but that is not possible either. Paul states in Romans 4:14: “For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, because the law brings wrath.” (NIV)

That is also clear. If you rely on obedience to the law, faith can mean nothing to you; therefore, you are cut off from grace, for grace comes through faith. The reason law brings wrath is because you cannot meet the standard set under it to be righteous before God. There is only one covenant, and that covenant is pure grace, not diluted grace. Such grace does not exist.

 

[stuart lawrence]

It is the penalty of sin that makes you so fearful of sin, and your fear of sin produces great allurement in you to sin. If I said to you, “If you think of a pink rabbit, God will condemn you to hell,” what is the first thing you will think of if you believe me? You would try desperately never to think of such a creature, wouldn’t you? You would become agitated at the thought of a pink rabbit. You would be, animated, overwrought, disturbed, nervous, and panic stricken at the thought of the creature. You would end up in a frenzied state concerning it, I imagine. Now the more these emotions overcome you concerning the creature, the more the thought of the creature will overwhelm you; it will become irresistible. You see, however, as you know there is no penalty of condemnation in place if you think of a pink rabbit, you will not get worked up about it, will you? Paul states Romans 7:5-6:


For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. (NIV)


Paul tells us the law arouses sinful passions in us when we live under it. For he goes on to say we die to the law − we have been released from the law (of righteousness) as Christians and serve in the new way of the Spirit, not the old way of the written code (the law). Why does he say the law arouses sinful passions for those living under it?

Well, you see, the same emotions that would overcome you at the thought of a pink rabbit, if you believed such thoughts could condemn you, would also overcome you where sin is concerned if you live under the law. The penalty for sin is in place if you live under the law, isn’t it? Your sin, therefore can condemn you to hell. You would be extremely agitated at the thought of sin. You would be animated, overwrought, disturbed, nervous, and panic stricken at the thought of sin. Now the more these emotions concerning sin overcome you, the more sin will overwhelm you, and the more your ability to resist sin will weaken. Why is this? Because those emotions bring you to an excited state, friend. They are all bar panic-stricken definitions of the word excite. And the definition of panic-stricken is “frenzy,” and the definition of frenzy is “wild excitement.” The emotions that result from your fear of the penalty for sin bring you to a very excited (or aroused) state where sin is concerned. If you live under the law, therefore, your fear of breaking it (sin) results in sinful passions being aroused in you. That is why Paul tells us the law arouses sinful passions in us if we live under it.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Paul tells us where the power of sin lies. He states in 1 Corinthians 15:56, “The power of sin is the law.” (NIV)

Why does Paul state this? Well Paul is referring here to the law with its penalty in place for breaking it. As we have seen, the true power of sin is in the penalty attached to the law if you break it, for through that penalty sin has the power to condemn you to hell, and through the fear of that penalty many sinful passions are aroused in you. With the penalty of sin removed from you, sin has been robbed of its true power in and dominance over your life. For your righteousness before God rests in what Jesus did for you at Calvary, not obedience to the law.

The great Evangelist Kathryn Khulman said, “Christ died to pay the penalty of your sin, and he died to break the power of sin.” By achieving the first, the second automatically follows.

God created a covenant whereby he put the desire in your heart to obey Him − you have been born again. Because that is the case, Jesus paid the penalty of your sin, but though he paid the penalty of your sin, the law remains intact on your heart. By Jesus paying that penalty, He removed the true power of sin from your life. Now what happensif you take the power of something away? It must weaken, mustn’t it? Nothing else is possible. The Christian’s born again heartfelt desire to obey can now come to fruition, for Jesus’ sacrifice at Calvary has fatally weakened sin, which is what opposes obedience. So Paul states in Romans 3:31, “Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? [a righteousness of faith in Christ-not obedience to the law] Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.” (NIV, emphasis mine)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The consequence of sin:

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts" (Galatians 5:19-24).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:26-29).

"For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." (Hebrews 3:12-13).

And those in the last days.

"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was." (2 Timothy 3:1-9).

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[stuart lawrence]

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Righteousness through faith

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith inh]' data-fn="#fen-NIVUK-28014h">[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,i]' data-fn="#fen-NIVUK-28017i">[i] through the shedding of his blood – to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished 26 – he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the ‘law’ that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. Rom 3:19-21

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’e]' data-fn="#fen-NIVUK-29113e">[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because ‘the righteous will live by faith.’f]' data-fn="#fen-NIVUK-29114f">[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, ‘The person who does these things will live by them.’g]' data-fn="#fen-NIVUK-29115g">[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.’h]' data-fn="#fen-NIVUK-29116h">[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

The law and the promise
15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say ‘and to seeds’, meaning many people, but ‘and to your seed’,i]' data-fn="#fen-NIVUK-29119i">[i] meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: the law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.

21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Children of God
23 Before the coming of this faith,j]' data-fn="#fen-NIVUK-29126j">[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptised into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal3:10-29

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Can we sin because we are not under the Law? God forbid.

Romans 6:15-16
"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

By Faith, both spiritual understanding and action (works) is a result.

Hebrews 11:3
"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Hebrews 11:7
"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

Faith without works is a dead kind of faith.

James 2:17
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

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[stuart lawrence]

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the ‘law’ that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
Rom 3:27&28

 

[stuart lawrence]

Works come from knowing your are justified by faith alone. Once you tag works with faith, you are saying faith in Christ is not enough to save you.
Then you are on very dangerous ground

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul is talking about the works of the Law of Moses in Romans 4. Here is the context:

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1)

"Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:" (Romans 3:29).

The Jews tried to be justified exclusively by the Law of Moses without any need for a Savior. They were also trying to push the old ritual laws from the Law of Moses like circumcision upon Christians that did not apply anymore. We are now under a New Covenant with New Commands.

In other words, Paul is talking about what is going on internally involving salvation within Romans 4 and Ephesians 2:8-9. James is talking about what salvation looks like externally in James 2:17. The source of a person's salvation is Jesus both internally and externally. Paul is saying we are not saved by the works of the Law of Moses or by a works salvation alone type belief. Paul is referring to man directed works, whereas James is referring to God directed works.



...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the ‘law’ that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
Rom 3:27&28

Again, this is talking about the works of the Law of Moses. Besides, even if it was talking about works in general, it would be talking about man directed works and not God directed works. In other words, I cannot boast or pat myself on the back if I realize that any good or work I ultimately do in Christ comes from Him and not me.

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[Bible Highlighter]

Are Matthew 6:15 and 1 John 3:15 God directed Commands or man directed commands? If they come from God, then why provide these commands (with consequences in the after-life attached in not obeying them) just so that God would immediately nullify them shortly there-after?


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