True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

ToBeLoved · Nov 7, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
If a person truly loves God in their heart, they could NEVER view not being under a law of righteousness as a reason to be apathetic about God, or go out and sin as much ad they wanted
If a person truly loved their neighbour they could not crush them with demands they fail to live up to in their own life

Just popping in quickly to say Amen.

stuart lawrence · Nov 7, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
Just popping in quickly to say Amen.

Would you agree, that the new covenant at its core is two fold? The law God desires us to keep is placed within us. Therefore in our minds we instinctively know how God wants us to live and in our hearts we want to obey. In this sense we have been spiritually born again. We know longer seek a life of sin, but a life in line with how God wants us to live. Jesus died for the sins of those who have been born again of the holy spirit, for he will be no ones saviour from sin unless they in their heart desire to obey his father.
So part one if you like of the new covenant cuts out the licence to sin. If you in your heart want to obey God the fact a law of righteousness is removed from you cannot bring you to view Christs death at Calvary as a licence to sin, for you in your heart want to obey God. If you in your heart want to obey God it is not possible at the same time to wilfully without conscience seek to disobey him is it.
Therefore under the new covenant, those who accept Christ as their lord and saviour are supernaturally changed, born again into people who want to obey Gods good and holy laws, and because they do, the penalty for sin is removed from them(a law of righteousness)
But although a christian is born again in their heart, they are not born again in the flesh so the battle is always spirit against flesh as Paul tells us.
When a christian wilfully gives into the flesh, the failsafe mechanism that stops a licence to sin kicks in if you like. They are going against the law placed on their heart, and their conscience will be seered by them doing so. They will have no rest, no peace until they come before their father in heaven and seek his forgiveness for their folly, much as a child would come before a parent and seek forgiveness for breaking their rules. A person who was not born again of the spirit would not have their conscience seered if they sinned wilfully for the law had not been placed on their heart, and through the law we become conscious of sin(rom3:20) so the christian has heartfelt conviction of their sin for the spirit has brought new birth to them
Hence Jesus told nicodemus
Ye MUST be born again. It is not an option it is pivotal, for without that happening you could view grace ad a licence to sin. And God did not create a covenant that gave anyone a licence to sin

I wondered if you agreed with that or not, only you know what is most important in the faith from your posts and fully accept grace.
God bless

Bible Highlighter · Nov 8, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
But He did not ask her if she was sorry. If she would never sin again. If she repented.

He told her 'Go and sin no more'.

That is not repentence. A sinner repents. She did not repent.

What verses do you have that shows she repented?

Repentance is feeling sorrowful over one's sin whereby one turns to God and away from sin. Are you trying to say that you do not have to feel sorrowful over sin and not bring forth fruits worthy of repentance? John the Baptist said we must bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Matthew 3:8).

In Acts, Paul says,

"Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance." (Acts 26:19-20 ESV).

Also, the Bible says elsewhere in several places that repentance is necessary in order to receive mercy. For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation..." (2 Corinthians 7:10). So we do not need the Bible to tell us that she expressed Godly sorrow in heart whereby she seeked God's mercy. It was evident that she was penitant by Jesus telling her to: "Go and sin no more." For "forsaking sin" is the fruits of repentance. Just like apples are the fruit of an apple tree. David did not continue in his sin of murder and adultery. David repented of those sins in Psalm 51 and brought forth fruit worthy of repentance. Jesus said, "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation and shall condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; ..." (Matthew 12:41). In Jonah chapter, we see that the Ninevites repentance is followed by their turning from their evil ways (John 3:10). This is what true repentance leads to. For one expresses Godly sorrow over their sin and turns to God in the hope they will not sin again. They are making things right with God. Turning from sin and turning to God. Which then leads to true actions or fruit based on their seeking of God's mercy.

In the Parable of the Two Sons, we see the first son who initially did not do his father's will but he repented and went and did his father's work. The second son said he would do his father's work but then did not do it at all.

"But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him." (Matthew 21:28-32).

Now, what is interesting to note about this parable is that one son had repentance which led to fruit (i.e. deeds) and the other son did not repent with no fruit or change.

Do you see why I have a problem with folk's version of Justification? It does not really need to lead to a completely changed life. One can still hold onto sin on some level and not do the Father's will. This is not how it was intended to be. God wants all our heart, mind, and soul. Not half of it. For when folks say they cannot stop sinning, they are holding onto sin, self, and the this world and yet wanting to also serve God. But it doesn't work like that. God wants our complete allegiance. God wants our complete life. God wants our entire love and dedication. For He deserves nothing less, especially for so great a cost of what He has done for us on calvary. For the holy Son of God suffered so much because He loves you and me (so very deeply).

...

Bible Highlighter · Nov 8, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
If a person truly loves God in their heart, they could NEVER view not being under a law of righteousness as a reason to be apathetic about God, or go out and sin as much ad they wanted
If a person truly loved their neighbour they could not crush them with demands they fail to live up to in their own life

If a person truly loves God they will become a slave to righteousness that leads to holiness.

"I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." (Romans 6:19-22).

For Romans 8:13 says,

"If you live by your corrupt nature, you are going to die. But if you use your spiritual nature to put to death the evil activities of the body, you will live." (God's Word Translation).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews 5:9).

....

stuart lawrence · Nov 8, 2015

Jason0047 said:
If a person truly loves God they will become a slave to righteousness that leads to holiness.

"I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." (Romans 6:19-22).

For Romans 8:13 says,

"If you live by your corrupt nature, you are going to die. But if you use your spiritual nature to put to death the evil activities of the body, you will live." (God's Word Translation).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews 5:9).

....

For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law,(OF RIGHTEOUJSNESS)but under grace.
Slaves to righteousness

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey – whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness LEADING to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life

stuart lawrence · Nov 8, 2015

We clearly see in Rom 6:15 the Christian has chosen their master. Therefore, the fact they are not under a law of righteousness cannot give them a licence to sin, for they have chosen whom they will obey. However, some believe if the law of righteousness is removed this would make them apathetic about God and they would then go out and sin as much as they liked having such knowledge. Clearly such a person does not understand the Gospel message Paul preached

Bible Highlighter · Nov 8, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law,(OF RIGHTEOUJSNESS)but under grace.
Slaves to righteousness

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey – whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness LEADING to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life

Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Peter even tells us to ... "BE HOLY in all manner of conduct."

"Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he who has called you is holy, so be holy in all manner of conduct; Because it is written, You will be holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:13-16).

Peter does not say strive to be holy in all manner of conduct (even though you really can't do it). Peter does not say that. Peter says "BE HOLY... in all manner of conduct."

....

stuart lawrence · Nov 8, 2015

But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness Rom 6:1`7&18

It is vital to understand the above emboldened. The romans were set free of being slaves of sin, and changed into slaves of righteousness leading to holiness by following the teaching of grace they had been given. Under that teaching, we know while this crossing over takes place Paul tells us we will be seen to be sinners for, it takes time to cross over from one state to the other, it is not instantaneous. Therefore anyone who fails to understand this, fails to understand Paul's core message of how sin is to be overcome, and the justification/sanctification process of the Christian. They only have some of the literal letter, not a true understanding of the message of grace that letter contains

Bible Highlighter · Nov 8, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
We clearly see in Rom 6:15 the Christian has chosen their master. Therefore, the fact they are not u8nder a law of righteousness cannot give them a licence to sin, for they have chosen whom they will obey. However, some believe if the law of righteousness is removed this would make them apathetic about God and they would then go out and sin as much as they liked having such knowledge. Clearly such a person does not understand the Gospel message Paul preached

Righteousness is only determined by the standard of some kind of law. If one is a slave to righteousness, then they are slave to some kind of law that defines righteousness.

...

Bible Highlighter · Nov 8, 2015

For the righteousness of the law... is fulfilled in us.

Romans 8:4
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"

...

stuart lawrence · Nov 8, 2015

Jason0047 said:
For the righteousness of the law... is fulfilled in us.

Romans 8:4
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"

...

And of course, some demand perfect obedience of the letter, while admitting at the same time they fail to perfectly follow that letter themselves. This according to Christ is the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy

Bible Highlighter · Nov 8, 2015

For Scripture is under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. And if we walk after the Spirit, we cannot go against what is commanded in God's Word. For God can only lead you into doing what is good and right by His Word.

Christians are not workers of lawlessness. For the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us.

...

Bible Highlighter · Nov 8, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
And of course, some demand perfect obedience of the letter, while admitting at the same time they fail to perfectly follow that letter themselves. This according to Christ is the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy

Why on Earth would Jesus and the apostles give us commands just so as to turn around and tell us not to obey them? What you propose does not make any sense.

....

stuart lawrence · Nov 8, 2015

Jason0047 said:
For the righteousness of the law... is fulfilled in us.

Romans 8:4
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"

...

If you understood Paul's Gospel message(which you do not) you would understand that one can be led of the truth of the Gospel message whilst still being imperfect in the flesh. For following after the truth of the Gospel message LEADS to holiness. If you were already perfect in the flesh you would not be being LED INTO HOLINESS. You would already be perfectly holy

stuart lawrence · Nov 8, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Why on Earth would Jesus and the apostles give us commands just so as to turn around and tell us not to obey them? What you propose does not make any sense.

....

Clearly you have no understanding of the truth of Paul's Gospel message. For I repeat. you have stated if you believed the law of righteousness was removed from you that knowledge would make you apathetic about God and go out and sin as much as you wanted. In Romans 6:15 Paul states that is not possible for such knowledge to bring a Christian to do as you have said you would do
If you love God you could never take the view you do. I am afraid scripture testifies against you with such an attitude

stuart lawrence · Nov 8, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Why on Earth would Jesus and the apostles give us commands just so as to turn around and tell us not to obey them? What you propose does not make any sense.

....

As you have admitted to not obeying all of Christ's commands while at the same time insisting everyone else does, Christ's words concerning the Pharisees must be applicable to you. You have the yeast which is hypocrisy

stuart lawrence · Nov 8, 2015

Before my words are yet again twisted and lied about. The Holy Spirit can lead you in the truth of the Gospel message while you are imperfect in the flesh. The holy Spirit does not lead you to commit sin, such a belief would be blasphemy
Not that anyone would deliberately lie as to what I have written, but sadly it may be possible

stuart lawrence · Nov 8, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Why on Earth would Jesus and the apostles give us commands just so as to turn around and tell us not to obey them? What you propose does not make any sense.

....

You need to face the reality Jason, rather than be limited to not being able to see beyond the letter
If Christians were pre programmed robots, your views would be fine. We could all have a micro chip inserted in us and perfectly follow the manual. But we are not, our flesh has not been born again and we live in a body of weak flesh. If you want to call that an excuse for wallowing in sin fine, that is to your detrement.
As that Baptist minister said once:
If we perfectly followed after the Holy Spirit every minute of our lives, none of us would ever sin, the reality of which escapes us all.
That is the reality Jason, and it is the reality for you as much as it is for everyone else
Is that a licence to sin? Not if you have been born again, understand the Gospel message and love God it isn't

ToBeLoved · Nov 8, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Would you agree, that the new covenant at its core is two fold? The law God desires us to keep is placed within us. Therefore in our minds we instinctively know how God wants us to live and in our hearts we want to obey. In this sense we have been spiritually born again. We know longer seek a life of sin, but a life in line with how God wants us to live. Jesus died for the sins of those who have been born again of the holy spirit, for he will be no ones saviour from sin unless they in their heart desire to obey his father.
So part one if you like of the new covenant cuts out the licence to sin. If you in your heart want to obey God the fact a law of righteousness is removed from you cannot bring you to view Christs death at Calvary as a licence to sin, for you in your heart want to obey God. If you in your heart want to obey God it is not possible at the same time to wilfully without conscience seek to disobey him is it.
Therefore under the new covenant, those who accept Christ as their lord and saviour are supernaturally changed, born again into people who want to obey Gods good and holy laws, and because they do, the penalty for sin is removed from them(a law of righteousness)
But although a christian is born again in their heart, they are not born again in the flesh so the battle is always spirit against flesh as Paul tells us.
When a christian wilfully gives into the flesh, the failsafe mechanism that stops a licence to sin kicks in if you like. They are going against the law placed on their heart, and their conscience will be seered by them doing so. They will have no rest, no peace until they come before their father in heaven and seek his forgiveness for their folly, much as a child would come before a parent and seek forgiveness for breaking their rules. A person who was not born again of the spirit would not have their conscience seered if they sinned wilfully for the law had not been placed on their heart, and through the law we become conscious of sin(rom3:20) so the christian has heartfelt conviction of their sin for the spirit has brought new birth to them
Hence Jesus told nicodemus
Ye MUST be born again. It is not an option it is pivotal, for without that happening you could view grace ad a licence to sin. And God did not create a covenant that gave anyone a licence to sin

I wondered if you agreed with that or not, only you know what is most important in the faith from your posts and fully accept grace.
God bless

The short answer is I believe that after we have been born again and have been justified by the blood of Jesus Christ and our sins have been forgiven that because we are then a clean vessel, without sin (because of the blood of Christ) that God is able to reside within us so the Holy Spirit is given to us to reside within us.

The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin.

John 16:7-9
7"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

Now because we have free will, we of course do not have to listen to the Holy Spirit, but those who do listen have the Holy Spirit there. When we learn to listen to the Holy Spirit we become more use to hearing because our spirit is open to spiritual things and holiness.

So in essence, the Word of God is written on our hearts and if we listen to the Holy Spirit and are convicted of our sins, we naturally want to repent and realise that we have fallen short of His holiness and repent.

That is why the Lord tells us in His Word to seek the spiritual because the earth is not our home but the spiritual within us and our true home is in heaven with our Lord forever.

ToBeLoved · Nov 8, 2015

Jason0047 said:
For the righteousness of the law... is fulfilled in us.

Romans 8:4
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"

...

Yes. Very true.

Because we have the mind of Christ and the Holy Spirit God dwelling within us.

Notice that it says that we are not to walk after the flesh but after the Spirit. The Holy Spirit who convicts us of our sin. If we listen to the Holy Spirit when He convicts us of our sin, what would we do?

We would feel sorry, repent and not want to do it again.

So what happens at that point?

1 John 1:9
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

So at that point. We are once again clean vessels cleansed of all unrighteousness by the blood of Jesus Christ. Now notice it is not us who is fair and just, but Jesus Christ. That is how we know that it is true. Because it is GOD"S LAW that when His Children repent that He will cleanse them of ALL unrighteousness.

So the righteousness of God is then fulfilled in us when we go forth and are better. Trying not to commit that sin again and LISTENING to the Holy SPirit who is there to convict us of sin.

Why?

So when we sin we come back to Jesus Christ to be forgiven and cleansed again. Then to go out and do better.

That is sanctification. That God's Word written on our minds and hearts combined with the Holy Spirit residing in each of God's Children will convict us of our sin so we seek repentance and turn from sin. Coming back to Christ in repentance, being cleansed of all our sins and made once again righteous and to go out and do better. BUT if we fall and sin, we have the promise that if we come back to Jesus that HE is FAIR AND JUST to Cleanse us of ALL unrighteoussness.

True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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