True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[stuart lawrence]

Do you believe Jesus when He says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfectly? Ever ask your self why the Father is perfect?


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Jesus was teaching people to love God and love their neighbour, not to look to the literal letter for obedience, but to love.
There is no love in your gospel message Jason. For you look to the literal letter, ut is all you have.
Be ye perfect in the sense of growing evermore to love others. It is a perfection of a process you must continually follow. Christians have to grow, to mature. It is a journey all your life. Your gospel of become a christian and imnediatley perform perfect is a gospel devoid of understanding the message, simply quoting the literal letter as the Pharisees did

 

[ToBeLoved]

Where did I say I am like the Pharisee who did not keep the moral law daily? Are you keeping God’s moral laws? If not, Paul says the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.



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But who in Christ Jesus can be called unrighteous? We have the righteousness of Christ.

Is that not enough for you? The righteousness of Christ?

Do you need your own? Is that what you will stand with on Judgment Day in front of a Holy God, with YOUR righteousness?

I will not be. I will have the righteousness of my Savior. I am do not think enough of myself to think I can stand in front of a Holy, Sinless God on my own merit.

Jesus says that those who are first, will be last and those who are last will be made first.

Are sinners forgiven of their sin by Jesus still sinners?

Does not the Word say that once forgiven, sins are cast as far as the east is from the west. Never to be spoken of again

So, who that is covered by the righteousness of the blood of the Son of God and given forgiveness of sin will not inherit the Kingdom of God?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Why was Jesus angry with the Pharisees? Was it because they did not have a faith that you are describing by telling them and others not to worry about God’s Laws salvation wise and just focus more on Him in being the Savior? I am sorry. I just do not see that teaching at all by Jesus and His followers.

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Did you read the text?

I'll pull out a few verses/phrases for you.

but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4 “They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. 5 “But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men;

They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues.

“Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in

“You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold?


This one you might ponder. I was talking earlier about love.

For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth

Who do you think the verse above is about? The only two that were crucified were Jesus Christ and Peter. Right? Who are the ones that Jesus sent out?

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 “Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I stated facts. It is as clear as day you have distorted my views on many occasions.

Misunderstandings is not the same as constantly accusing someone falsely of a belief that they say they do not hold to. I am more than happy to make ammends on any thing you think I said you do not believe. Granted, if you said gravity does not apply to you but yet you obey it, I have a right to point it out to you that such a thing is wrong.



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[ToBeLoved]

Ever ask your self why the Father is perfect?
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I know from the Word that the Father is holy. The Father can only be Holy because that is who He is.

Why do you think the Father is perfect?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Misunderstandings is not the same as constantly accusing someone falsely of a belief that they say they do not hold to.



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Absolutely! Now show me when I ever preached a licence to sin? Show me where I have ever stated a person can become a Christian and continue getting drunk all their life and also commit adultery as much as they like? Yet that is what you insinuate I believe many times.
What I have consistently said, and it is according to the plainly written words of Paul is, it takes time for a person to cross over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness leading to holiness. During that time Paul says we may be found to be sinners. If you believe that is wrong, I would question God about what is written in the bible, not constantly accuse me of preaching a licence to sin and wanting to wallow in sin.
Your problem is, you do not understand what is entailed in a person being born again, therefore you use your logic(for you have said it is logical) to assume if a righteousness of obedience to the ten commandments/moral law is withdrawn, this means you have a licence to sin. But you see, God did not create a covenant based on human logic, for his thoughts are higher than ours and so are his ways. He created a covenant whereby peoples hearts and minds were changed into people who want to obey him, that is why righteousness from all the law was removed
Hopwever, you have stated that if you believed you were not under a law of righteousness you would use that knowledge to sin as much as you like. Can a truly born again Christian view such a covenant that way?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Did you read the text?

I'll pull out a few verses/phrases for you.

but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4 “They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. 5 “But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men;

They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues.

“Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in

“You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold?


This one you might ponder. I was talking earlier about love.

For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth

Who do you think the verse above is about? The only two that were crucified were Jesus Christ and Peter. Right? Who are the ones that Jesus sent out?

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 “Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

Are you implying that I do those things or that all Christians do these things?



...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I know from the Word that the Father is holy. The Father can only be Holy because that is who He is.

Why do you think the Father is perfect?

Jesus is telling us to holy and sinless as the Father because that is one of things that makes Him perfect.



...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You do know the measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you don't you?

That is not an answer on whether or not in what I said was true. For if it is true, it is not wrong for me to point out such false beliefs. Do not be evasive. Tell it to me straight.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

That is not an answer on whether or not in what I said was true. For if it is true, it is not wrong for me to point out such false beliefs. Do not be evasive. Tell it to me straight.


...

Tell what to you straight? How good do you think my memory is?
What are you referring to?
Good quote though

The measure we use to judge others will, according to Christ be used to judge us also

BTW
When are you going to tell me straight what the term born again means to you, and what you personally believe the result is of the law being written on your mind and placed on your heart?
I don't need scripture verses, just your personal opinion

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Absolutely! Now show me when I ever preached a licence to sin? Show me where I have ever stated a person can become a Christian and continue getting drunk all their life and also commit adultery as much as they like? Yet that is what you insinuate I believe many times.
What I have consistently said, and it is according to the plainly written words of Paul is, it takes time for a person to cross over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness leading to holiness. During that time Paul says we may be found to be sinners. If you believe that is wrong, I would question God about what is written in the bible, not constantly accuse me of preaching a licence to sin and wanting to wallow in sin.
Your problem is, you do not understand what is entailed in a person being born again, therefore you use your logic(for you have said it is logical) to assume if a righteousness of obedience to the ten commandments/moral law is withdrawn, this means you have a licence to sin. But you see, God did not create a covenant based on human logic, for his thoughts are higher than ours and so are his ways. He created a covenant whereby peoples hearts and minds were changed into people who want to obey him, that is why righteousness from all the law was removed
Hopwever, you have stated that if you believed you were not under a law of righteousness you would use that knowledge to sin as much as you like. Can a truly born again Christian view such a covenant that way?

I am saying if God didn't care enough to punish man's sin, then why would his creation who is made in his image care. The creation is not better or above the Creator. You believe that a believer generally will obey according to your beliefs. But... you make room for sin by saying you can never stop sinning. You also believe Galatians says we will be found as sinners. Are you in obedience to God if you are found a sinner? Also, Jesus said to the woman caught in the act of adultery to sin no more. I choose to believe Jesus when he says sin no more. The question is: Why don't believe him when he says that?



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[stuart lawrence]

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[stuart lawrence]

I am saying if God didn't care enough to punish man's sin, then why would his creation who is made in his image care. The creation is not better or above the Creator. You believe that a believer generally will obey according to your beliefs. But... you make room for sin by saying you can never stop sinning. You also believe Galatians says we will be found as sinners. Are you in obedience to God if you are found a sinner? Also, Jesus said to the woman caught in the act of adultery to sin no more. I choose to believe Jesus when he says sin no more. The question is: Why don't believe him when he says that?



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I am saying if God didn't care enough to punish man's sin, then why would his creation who is made in his image care.

My response
''Well if you could answer the questions as to what it means to be born again and have the law placed within you, you would have the answer. I have repeatedly given you the answer, so am surprised you keep asking the question.''



The creation is not better or above the Creator. You believe that a believer generally will obey according to your beliefs. But... you make room for sin by saying you can never stop sinning.


My response
''''I deny the fact I can become sinless on this earth yes. The only way you can kid yourself you are perfect in the flesh is either not to understand the demands of Gods good and holy laws or to water them down. But as you look to the literal letter and quote we must obey Christ's commands. Why(according to your beliefs) do you sin by not obeying all of Christ's commands?
You are making room to sin all the time according to what you have stated. Sounds hypocritical to me.''''

You also believe Galatians says we will be found as sinners. Are you in obedience to God if you are found a sinner?

My response:

'''If while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Gal2:16 niv1984 ed

Well do you accept what it says in Galatians or not? Are you accusing me of false beliefs for accepting the plain words of the bible? PLEASE RESPOND'''


Also, Jesus said to the woman caught in the act of adultery to sin no more. I choose to believe Jesus when he says sin no more. The question is: Why don't believe him when he says that?

My response
Check your bible, that particular verse was not written in the most ancient manuscripts. But you need to rightly divide the word. The woman had been living a life of adultery. Was Jesus telling her(if the verse is authentic) she must be perfect in the flesh, or leave her current lifestyle behind?

 

[stuart lawrence]

I am saying if God didn't care enough to punish man's sin, then why would his creation who is made in his image care. The creation is not better or above the Creator. You believe that a believer generally will obey according to your beliefs. But... you make room for sin by saying you can never stop sinning. You also believe Galatians says we will be found as sinners. Are you in obedience to God if you are found a sinner? Also, Jesus said to the woman caught in the act of adultery to sin no more. I choose to believe Jesus when he says sin no more. The question is: Why don't believe him when he says that?



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Would you answer my question now as I thoroughly answered all of yours

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am saying if God didn't care enough to punish man's sin, then why would his creation who is made in his image care.

My response
''Well if you could answer the questions as to what it means to be born again and have the law placed within you, you would have the answer. I have repeatedly given you the answer, so am surprised you keep asking the question.''



The creation is not better or above the Creator. You believe that a believer generally will obey according to your beliefs. But... you make room for sin by saying you can never stop sinning.


My response
''''I deny the fact I can become sinless on this earth yes. The only way you can kid yourself you are perfect in the flesh is either not to understand the demands of Gods good and holy laws or to water them down. But as you look to the literal letter and quote we must obey Christ's commands. Why(according to your beliefs) do you sin by not obeying all of Christ's commands?
You are making room to sin all the time according to what you have stated. Sounds hypocritical to me.''''

You also believe Galatians says we will be found as sinners. Are you in obedience to God if you are found a sinner?

My response:

'''If while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Gal2:16 niv1984 ed

Well do you accept what it says in Galatians or not? Are you accusing me of false beliefs for accepting the plain words of the bible? PLEASE RESPOND'''


Also, Jesus said to the woman caught in the act of adultery to sin no more. I choose to believe Jesus when he says sin no more. The question is: Why don't believe him when he says that?

Check your bible, that particular verse was not written in the most ancient manuscripts. But you need to rightly divide the word. The woman had been living a life of adultery. Was Jesus telling her(if the verse is authentic) she must be perfect in the flesh, or leave her current lifestyle behind?

And my time is limited; So giving a reply on something on questions that deserve a proper answer with Scripture when I have more time is all I can physically do at the moment. You are going to have to learn to be patient.

As for Jesus saying to sin no more to the woman: That is exactly what he meant. But you do not like these words from Jesus because they conflict with what you believe.



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[stuart lawrence]

And my time is limited; So giving a reply on something on questions that deserve a proper answer with Scripture when I have more time is all I can physically do at the moment. You are going to have to learn to be patient.

As for Jesus saying to sin no more to the woman. That is exactly what he meant. But you do not like these words from Jesus because it conflicts with what you believe.


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No, that is not true, and may I remind you, that verse was not believed to have been in the most ancient manuscripts. You have to rightly divide the word, something you fail to do.

Why would you need to quote scripture to give me your personal opinions/beliefs as to what it means to be born again, and what it means to have the law placed within you/how it affects you as a person? Have you no beliefs of your own worked out concerning these things?

 

[stuart lawrence]

And my time is limited; So giving a reply on something on questions that deserve a proper answer with Scripture when I have more time is all I can physically do at the moment. You are going to have to learn to be patient.

As for Jesus saying to sin no more to the woman: That is exactly what he meant. But you do not like these words from Jesus because they conflict with what you believe.



....

Please respond to the following, you did ask the question:

'''If while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Gal2:16 niv1984 ed
Do you accept what it says in Galatians or not? Are you accusing me of false beliefs for accepting the plain words of the bible? PLEASE RESPOND'''

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus is telling us to holy and sinless as the Father because that is one of things that makes Him perfect.

...

The Father does not need to BE perfect. The Father can be no other than to BE HOLY. There is no other option.

See the difference?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I am saying if God didn't care enough to punish man's sin, then why would his creation who is made in his image care.
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I see. So God does not care that human beings who He created in His image to with their own free will want to be with Him, because He does not care about sin.

So I take it that you do not believe

"God so LOVED the world, that HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTON SON"

because there was no punishment for sin.

I think that His SON paid your sin debt in full. And it was not cute.

So God cared SO much that He was willing to put His Holy wrath on His Son to come and suffer for YOU.

But I guess you don't care as you are earning your way.

Do you understand what Christ did for you? God Himself took your sin so you can be in paradise for eternity WITH Him.

That does not sound like God does not care to me. That sounds like God did what you could not do.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Are you implying that I do those things or that all Christians do these things?

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No, you said that you do not understand why Jesus was so upset with the Pharisee's.


I was showing you what Jesus Himself said to the Pharisee's.

So I gave you clear verses that Jesus was very clear what the Pharisee's were doing that was the opposite of what they stood in the synogages and preached each week on the Sabbath.

That implies nothing since you asked the question.