True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

stuart lawrence · Nov 3, 2015

Jason
[QUOTE="k:[/QUOTE]
Hi Jason
Despite my best efforts I cannot get internet access through a computer till tomorrow. As I will be copy, pasting I am afraid you will need to wait a bit longer till I can respond have every confidence in you to try and make the scriptures fit what you want them to say rather than what they do say. Will reply to deut30:6 & ez 3626&27 tomorrow
God bless
Ps didn't know some of explanation for deut 30 had successfully been posted. Internet disaster tonight

mercy1061 · Nov 3, 2015

Jason0047 said:
What are you trying to say? That we have to obey all of the Law of Moses or parts of it? I believe only the moral law has been carried over (of which we can see repeated in the New Testament).

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Did G-d speak to Abraham and Moses, how did they receive the law? Did G-d give his law to Moses? So you only accept part of G-d's law, the part you call the moral law. I agree with all of Torah, all of the bible.

mercy1061 · Nov 3, 2015

Jason0047 said:
No. The Bible has homonyms in it. A word can have several different meanings based on the context. Galatians is dealing with the problem of circumcision and those who were trying to be justified by the Law of Moses alone apart from a Savior. This was classic Works Salvationism. The word "law" in Galatians and Romans is speaking about the Law of Moses or the Law under the Old Covenant is no longer in effect. Meaning, the ceremonial laws and judicial laws that have not been carried over into the New Covenant. Hence, why Paul mentions "circumcision" as being a problem several times in both Romans and Galatians.

In Philippians: Paul is talking about the word "law" in being blameless according to his Pharisee traditions. Yet, Paul was not blameless before God's Law. For both the Old Covenant Law and the New Covenant Law both condemn one in blaspheming and in remaining a sinner (Which is why we need Savior and need to repent of our sins). For he that confesses and forsakes their sin will have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

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There is only one law.

mercy1061 · Nov 3, 2015

Jason0047 said:
I do not care what everyone believes or says. What does the Word of God actually say. Read the whole chapter again and think you are an Israelite who is reading it. Do you get an indication that it is speaking of some other people exclusively and not the Israelite? If so, then where does it state that?

I will be waiting for your response as to what verse you think says so.

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I guess you would be perfect in your own eyes, if you ignore the part of G-d's law that convicts you. Without the law there is no knowledge of sin,that is why you must keep the WHOLE LAW! Did you know that if you break PART of the law, you are guilty of breaking the whole law?

mercy1061 · Nov 3, 2015

Jason0047 said:
If I was an Israelites reading the Scriptures during that time, and I read this,

"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live." (Deuteronomy 30:6).

I would believe that this would have applied to me because God's Word says, he will circumcise THINE (my) heart, and the heart of THY (my) seed.

So here is the proof. It says YOUR (MY) heart and then it says the heart of YOUR (MY) seed (i.e. My children). So if I was an Israelite, I would understand that it is talking about circumcision of the heart for ME and for MY children.

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Are you a true hebrew or Israelite? If you are then you would understand that you must keep, honor and obey all Torah kingdom law.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 3, 2015

mercy1061 said:
I guess you would be perfect in your own eyes, if you ignore the part of G-d's law that convicts you. Without the law there is no knowledge of sin,that is why you must keep the WHOLE LAW! Did you know that if you break PART of the law, you are guilty of breaking the whole law?

Again, it's not possible to keep the Old Covenant Law without it conflicting with keeping the New Covenant Law. For one, you cannot offer animal sacrifices to a priest anymore. The temple veil was torn from top to bottom (not bottom to top) to show that God now does not accept any more sacrifices. Christ's sacrifice is the perfect and ultimate sacrifice for sin. For the blood of goats and bulls never took away sin for good. They were merely the shadow that was cast from the body of Jesus Christ.

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).

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Bible Highlighter · Nov 3, 2015

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (Galatians 3:10-14).

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Bible Highlighter · Nov 3, 2015

mercy1061 said:
There is only one law.

Not true. According to the Bible, it says the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).

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Bible Highlighter · Nov 3, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Hi Jason
Despite my best efforts I cannot get internet access through a computer till tomorrow. As I will be copy, pasting I am afraid you will need to wait a bit longer till I can respond have every confidence in you to try and make the scriptures fit what you want them to say rather than what they do say. Will reply to deut30:6 & ez 3626&27 tomorrow
God bless. Ps didn't know some of explanation for deut 30 had successfully been posted. Internet disaster tonight

Well, your last post was very hard to read so I did not really see what you were trying to get at to prove your case. But to cut to the chase, Ezekiel 44:9 is the key to cutting thru the source of confusion that you have caused for yourself.

According to this verse, it says that someone who is not uncircumcised in heart cannot enter the sanctuary. This presents two major problems for you if you believe Ezekiel 44:9 is set in the future Millennium, as well.

#1. Why would God allow unbelievers (uncircumcised in heart) to live and reign with Christ for a thousand years? That doesn't make any sense. Believers who are also called kings and priests (Revelation 5:9-10) will live and reign with Christ for 1,000 years.

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6).

#2. Also, since the death of Christ (Which began the New Covenant), there is not going to be any animal sacrifices anymore. The Temple veil was torn from top to bottom. We are now under a New Covenant whereby Christ is our perfect one time sacrifice. The reinstitution of the animal sacrifices (even partially for a short time) would be a step backwards. Christ had offered one sacrifice for sins forever and sat down at the right hand of God. So there is no more need for anymore sacrifices. For it is written...

"He taketh away the first [i.e. the Old Testament], that he may establish the second [i.e. the New Testament]. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;" (Hebrews 10:9-12).

In other words, Ezekiel's temple is not a prophecy of some future temple. I believe the Temple was already built at some point in Israel's past during their exile (But the temple was later destroyed and no records of existence have been found yet). For many in your circle or camp believe the animal sacrifices in the Millennium to be in memorial only. However, this is a big problem because Ezekiel clearly records that these sacrifices are to atone for sin (i.e. temporarily atone for sin --- Which is not possible anymore) (See Ezekiel 43:19-26) (Ezekiel 45:17-22).

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mercy1061 · Nov 3, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Again, it's not possible to keep the Old Covenant Law without it conflicting with keeping the New Covenant Law. For one, you cannot offer animal sacrifices to a priest anymore. The temple veil was torn from top to bottom (not bottom to top) to show that God now does not accept any more sacrifices. Christ's sacrifice is the perfect and ultimate sacrifice for sin. For the blood of goats and bulls never took away sin for good. They were merely the shadow that was cast from the body of Jesus Christ.

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).

...

Where do you get this stuff? You can't keep the old covenant without it conflicting with the new covenant? Seriously where is that WRITTEN EXACTLY like that? You are a uncircumcised gentile (heathen) trying to teach me ancient Torah kingdom law. Why are YOU attempting to make a PROFIT for teaching the gospel good news (Gal 5:2)? Abraham, Noah, even righteous Abel offered sacrifice BEFORE Solomon's temple! You don't need a high priest or temple to build an alter made of uncut, natural or living stones, to offer sacrifice! Yeshua said he did not come to abolish the law! Yeshua offeroed his sacrifice OUTSIDE the temple! Please spare me the anti-law rhetoric.

mercy1061 · Nov 3, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Not true. According to the Bible, it says the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).

...

How was there a change of priesthood?All jews KNOW there was NEVER a change of priesthood! The Torah or hebrew priesthood was only rehearsing, they were appointed by Melchizedek who has an endless life, so no need to replace him. The jewish priests could not continue to serve the people because they all died.

mercy1061 · Nov 3, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Not true. According to the Bible, it says the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).

Law has no S here, one law.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 3, 2015

mercy1061 said:
Where do you get this stuff? You can't keep the old covenant without it conflicting with the new covenant? Seriously where is that WRITTEN EXACTLY like that? You are a uncircumcised gentile (heathen) trying to teach me ancient Torah kingdom law. Why are YOU attempting to make a PROFIT for teaching the gospel good news (Gal 5:2)? Abraham, Noah, even righteous Abel offered sacrifice BEFORE Solomon's temple! You don't need a high priest or temple to build an alter made of uncut, natural or living stones, to offer sacrifice! Yeshua said he did bot come to abolish the law! Yeshua offered his sacrifice OUTSIDE the temple! Please spare me the anti-law rhetoric.

The Law says you have to offer animal sacrifices. You do not need to do that anymore. We are under a New Covenant. Jesus is our perfect sacrifice. The Scriptures say the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).

As for Jesus saying He came not to destroy the Law: Well, what does Jesus say in Matthew 5:17?

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

The "Law and the PROPHETS" is a reference to the entire Old Testament (Including the Prophetic books).
Here is a quote from an article:

"New Testament refers to the division of the Old Testament books in two ways. Most often, the Old Testament is referred to as the law and the prophets (see Matthew 5:17; Matthew 7:12; Matthew 22:40; John 1:45; Acts 13:15; Acts 24:14; Acts 28:13; Romans 3:21).

When Jesus referred to the law, the prophets, and the psalms, He was speaking of the entire Old Testament."

Source:
https://www.learnthebible.org/law-and-the-prophets.html

In other words, Jesus said he came not to destroy the Old Testament because there are still prophecies that are yet future that need to be fulfilled. Jesus came to fulfill these prophecies. And Jesus fulfilled those ordinances that were against us by nailing them to the cross (See Colossians 2:14). These "ordinances that were against us" would have been the ceremonial and judicial laws. For there are no OT ceremonial laws or judicial laws that have been repeated or re-stressed for us to obey under the New Covenant (And we ARE under a New Covenant or Testament).

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Bible Highlighter · Nov 3, 2015

mercy1061 said:
Law has no S here, one law.

If the Law changes, and there is a New Covenant, that means there is a New Law and a New agreement. You cannot put new wine into old wine skins. It doesn't work.

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Bible Highlighter · Nov 3, 2015

In other words, think of the Old Testament as an apple seed and the New Testament as an apple tree. The OT saint was justified by faith in the Lord and by looking ahead to the Promises that would be fulfilled in the Messiah (i.e. Jesus Christ).

For Jesus said, I came not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it. Meaning if I took a hammer and smashed the apple seed it could not be fulfilled into it's true intended purpose, --- so the Old was necessary part in order for the New to take place. But if I planted that apple seed in the ground, that means the apple seed would be fulfilled in becoming an apple tree (As it was meant to be). Jesus obeyed the Law perfectly and fulfilled it on our behalf so He can impute His righteousness to us when we repent of our sins and accept Him as our Savior. Then Christ is able to work His righteousness (According to His Word) thru us from that point (And not our own righteousness).

The animal sacrifices of the Old was a big part of the entire Old Testament. For without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. But the animals sacrifices never took away sin for good, though. No Law could take away sin for good. Only Christ's perfect sacrifice could do that. So we are saved by seeking His mercy and believing in His death, burial, and resurrection by faith; Because God loves us and He desires in wanting to have mercy upon on us so as to save us. God wants to save us! For He is our Savior! God doesn't want us to be our own Saviors. For we are saved by His Grace, and by His mercy, and by the washing of the regeneration of the Holy Ghost and not of works of righteousness of which we have done (Titus 3:5).

For the only works of righteousness that counts is Christ working in us those commands in the New Testament. We cannot take the credit and boast in such a work. For it is God that works and moves in us to do of His good will and pleasure. The works of God are merely the proof in the pudding that one has spiritual life (Which would be a person named Jesus Christ).

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stuart lawrence · Nov 3, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Well, your last post was very hard to read so I did not really see what you were trying to get at to prove your case. But to cut to the chase, Ezekiel 44:9 is the key to cutting thru the source of confusion that you have caused for yourself.

According to this verse, it says that someone who is not uncircumcised in heart cannot enter the sanctuary. This presents two major problems for you if you believe Ezekiel 44:9 is set in the future Millennium, as well.

#1. Why would God allow unbelievers (uncircumcised in heart) to live and reign with Christ for a thousand years? That doesn't make any sense. Believers who are also called kings and priests (Revelation 5:9-10) will live and reign with Christ for 1,000 years.

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6).

#2. Also, since the death of Christ (Which began the New Covenant), there is not going to be any animal sacrifices anymore. The Temple veil was torn from top to bottom. We are now under a New Covenant whereby Christ is our perfect one time sacrifice. The reinstitution of the animal sacrifices (even partially for a short time) would be a step backwards. Christ had offered one sacrifice for sins forever and sat down at the right hand of God. So there is no more need for anymore sacrifices. For it is written...

"He taketh away the first [i.e. the Old Testament], that he may establish the second [i.e. the New Testament]. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;" (Hebrews 10:9-12).

In other words, Ezekiel's temple is not a prophecy of some future temple. They were plans by the Lord for a temple for the Israelites to build that they never got to finish. For many in your circle or camp believe the animal sacrifices in the Millennium to be in memorial only. However, this is a big problem because Ezekiel clearly records that these sacrifices are to atone for sin (i.e. temporarily atone for sin --- Which is not possible anymore) (See Ezekiel 43:19-26) (Ezekiel 45:17-22).

...

I haven't a clue what this post has to do with whether their hearts were circumcised under the old covenant

Bible Highlighter · Nov 3, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
I haven't a clue what this post has to do with whether their hearts were circumcised under the old covenant

Well, I have been doing some reading and have been praying about it, and I come to a new conclusion as of this date about Ezekiel's vision. I believe Ezekiel's vision of the Temple actually took place already. I believe that this temple was built at one time and everything detailed (including the talk of some prince and his family) and the animal sacrifices took place during the time of Israel's exile. The temple was merely destroyed (like Solomon's temple was destroyed). The timing of Ezekiel's vision of a Temple would then be under the Old Testament. This is important to understand because if that is the case (which I believe it is), then those who were uncircumcised in heart (unbelievers or those who did not have a new birth spiritually) could not enter the sanctuary or the temple. This then is yet another bread crumb of evidence that shows that believers thru out all points in time needed to be born again so as to enter the Kingdom of God.

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mercy1061 · Nov 3, 2015

Jason0047 said:
If the Law changes, and there is a New Covenant, that means there is a New Law and a New agreement. You cannot put new wine into old wine skins. It doesn't work.

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The old wine tastes better. Luke 5:39

Bible Highlighter · Nov 3, 2015

mercy1061 said:
The old wine tastes better. Luke 5:39

I don't think Jesus intended that statement to be a positive one. Jesus instituted a New Covenant with his death. At the Wedding of Cana: The ceremonial washing containers used by the Jews that were once filled with water, had been turned into wine by Christ. At that moment, they could not use their old washing containers anymore because it had wine in it (Because of Jesus). They now had to go to the blood of Jesus (i.e. the new wine) so as to get cleansed.

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stuart lawrence · Nov 4, 2015

While the old covenant was in existence Jesus said the law hung on two command. Love God and love your neighbour. It is the same now. Jesus teaching can be summed up as examples of love God and love your neighbour, Paul knew that, hence:
Carry each others burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ gal6:2

But some don't see this. They look to the literal letter of each and every command of Christ and stress you must obey them all while failing themselves to do what they insist of others.
One very well known preacher said the beatitudes set a standard beyond the human to achieve. They show us how much we need jesus

True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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