True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

stuart lawrence · Nov 2, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Justification is declaring something or someone righteous. We are not only Justified by believing but by actions too. James says we are justified by our works. Granted, this is not our work but the work of God done thru us (So we can't take the credit or boast). Justification would include calling out to God by way of pray so as to repent of one's sins and accept Christ into one's heart. This involves believing Jesus died, was buried, and was risen 3 days later so as to be saved. Calling out to God by way of prayer to be saved is a work. Again, but it is God directed work and not a man directed work.

Most people believe Jesus saves in Justification, but they do not believe He truly saves in Sanctification.

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We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified(in respect of crossing over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness) by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law(striving to obey the law/striving to defeat the sin) no one will be justified.

17 ‘But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker. Gal2:15-18

Now that is as plain as day, it takes time to cross over from one state to the other, it is NOT instantaneous. And the crossing over is not by striving to defeat the sin(a work of the law) but faith in Christ.
Some sin the new convert can immediately cease, it may not have much of a hold over him, but Paul is referring to sins we are a slave to, for as you pointed out, we have to cross over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness leading to holiness

For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law Rom 3:28

Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Then take the fourth commandment out. You have continuously said you believe you have a righteousness/justification before God of observing the moral law/nine commandments

As I said there are other moral laws in the Old Testament. So it is not just 9. But the problem Paul was fighting against was not obedience to God's current Commands while trusting ultimately in Christ to save us by His death and resurrection. That would be silly. The problem he was addressing was folks trying to be justified by the Law of Moses alone without any Savior. This is the problem Paul was concerned with in the book of Romans and Galatians. Paul was addressing the problem of circumcision as being a requirement for salvation among some in the church because of the Pharisees false beliefs about salvation.

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stuart lawrence · Nov 2, 2015

Jason0047 said:
As I said there are other moral laws in the Old Testament. So it is not just 9. But the problem Paul was fighting against was not obedience to God's current Commands while trusting ultimately in Christ to save us by His death and resurrection. That would be silly. The problem he was addressing was folks trying to be justified by the Law of Moses alone without any Savior. This is the problem Paul was concerned with in the book of Romans and Galatians.

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As for Galatians 3:10-11: Again, this in reference to being justified alone by the Law of Moses. (Jasons words)

This is what Gal 3:10&11 states:

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’e]'>[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because ‘the righteous will live by faith

Now why would Paul be cursed trying to be justified according to the law of Moses when he could faultlessly obey it(Phil3:6)

stuart lawrence · Nov 2, 2015

Jason0047 said:
The problem he was addressing was folks trying to be justified by the Law of Moses alone without any Savior. This is the problem Paul was concerned with in the book of Romans and Galatians.

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That is ridiculous. Everyone apart from you accepts Paul is speaking of the moral law in Rom7

Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
That is ridiculous. Everyone apart from you accepts Paul is speaking of the moral law in Rom7

Paul is pointing out the good part of the Law that is still in effect in Romans 7. But the problem Paul was addressing in the book of Romans was certain believers false new idea that the ceremonial law such as circumcision was required for salvation (When the ceremonial laws are no longer in effect). The Jews also who pushed certain Christians into this type of thinking had a false salvation view of trusting in the Old Law alone (without a Savior). That is why Paul brings up the Jews (Who rejected their Messiah in Romans 9-11). That is why Paul says the solution to a Pharisees' struggle with sin is Jesus Christ. For one cannot be justified or keep any Law alone. A person needs a Saviour.

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stuart lawrence · Nov 2, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Paul is pointing out the good part of the Law that is still in effect in Romans 7. But the problem Paul was addressing in the book of Romans was certain believers false new idea that the ceremonial law such as circumcision was required for salvation (When the ceremonial laws are no longer in effect). The Jews also who pushed certain Christians into this type of thinking had a false salvation view of trusting in the Old Law alone (without a Savior). That is why Paul brings up the Jews (Who rejected their Messiah in Romans 9-11). That is why Paul says the solution to a Pharisees' struggle with sin is Jesus Christ. For one cannot be justified or keep any Law alone. A person needs a Saviour.

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, in romans 7 Paul gave one of the moral laws as an example of why he had to die to a law of righteousness
Jason, try and see beyond some of the literal letter. Which law has always been the problem for obedience, the mosaic law or the moral law? Surely you do not believe the answer to that question is the mosaic law.
Which law specifically brings so many christians such inner guilt? The same law Paul said condemned him
I mean this so sincerely. You have to understand the message the literal letter contains, then you pack churches out with a full cross section of people in

Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2015

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Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
, in romans 7 Paul gave one of the moral laws as an example of why he had to die to a law of righteousness
Jason, try and see beyond some of the literal letter. Which law has always been the problem for obedience, the mosaic law or the moral law? Surely you do not believe the answer to that question is the mosaic law.
Which law specifically brings so many christians such inner guilt? The same law Paul said condemned him
I mean this so sincerely. You have to understand the message the literal letter contains, then you pack churches out with a full cross section of people in

Paul did not say there are no consequences in the after life in coveting. Paul already lists several times that those who disobey the moral laws shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. Paul is pointing out the good in the Law and their struggle to wrongfully obey it by pointing them to Jesus Christ Because it is Christ who will save them and help them to overcome their sin). Not so as to be lawless but to destroy the works of the devil in their life.

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stuart lawrence · Nov 2, 2015

Yes Paul is pointing them to Christ, I agree. But he is still giving that moral law as an example of why he had to die to a law of righteousness, that is the only way you can look to Christ. Context, verses 7-11 come straight after verses 4_6 where Paul stresses the need to die to the law(of righteousness)

Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Yes Paul is pointing them to Christ, I agree. But he is still giving that moral law as an example of why he had to die to a law of righteousness, that is the only way you can look to Christ. Context, verses 7-11 come straight after verses 4_6 where Paul stresses the need to die to the law(of righteousness)

And rewind back to Romans 6. It says shall we continue in sin because we are not under the law? Paul says God forbid. Even Paul said we fulfill the moral part of the Law by loving others (Romans 13:8-10); And he that does not love (Which would naturally involve loving actions) does not know God.

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stuart lawrence · Nov 2, 2015

Jason0047 said:
And rewind back to Romans 6. It says shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul says God forbid. Even Paul said we fulfill the moral part of the Law by loving others (Romans 13:8-10); And he that does not love (Which would naturally involve loving actions) does not know God.

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But no one is saying the moral law should not be obeyed. Do not forget, it is a two part covenant. The law is on the converts heart, the moral law is there, in their heart they want to obey it. But obedience cones by faith(in Christ) But in order for you to take this path you must firstly die to the law of righteousness. There is no licence to sin, you are not dying to the desire to obey the law, only a law of righteousness for Christ is your righteousness. That is where the power is, knowing Christ is your justification, not obedience to the law
Reread gal2:15-17

JLB777 · Nov 2, 2015

Jordan Kurecki said:
JohN 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. t should raise it up again at the last day.

So according to you Jesus is a liar? cause he actually can lose us?

What an attack on the character of God you make with your false doctrine of conditional security.

I'm sorry you have chosen to reject the words of our Lord, in favor of your man made ideals.

A person who comes to Christ must believe. If they believe they will be saved.

If they believe for a while, then turn away and no longer believe, then they have become unbelievers.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe = Saved

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Believe for awhile = Saved for a while.

Temporary believing = Temporary Salvation

Please show me where unbelievers receive eternal life.

We are required to continue to believe to the end.

For the end of your faith is the salvation of your soul.

Not the beginning of your faith, but the end of your faith.

Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:8-9

For now we have the hope of salvation, for that is what faith is... the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen.

JLB

Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
But no one is saying the moral law should not be obeyed. Do not forget, it is a two part covenant. The law is on the converts heart, the moral law is there, in their heart they want to obey it. But obedience cones by faith(in Christ) But in order for you to take this path you must firstly die to the law of righteousness. There is no licence to sin, you are not dying to the desire to obey the law, only a law of righteousness for Christ is your righteousness. That is where the power is, knowing Christ is your justification, not obedience to the law
Reread gal2:15-17

Yes, you are essentially saying to others without realizing it that God’s moral laws can be disobeyed.

#1. You deny that a believer can stop sinning grevious or serious sins like lying, adultery, hate, etc. This is just a sad excuse to hold on to sin when one does not have to.

#2. You reduced sin as being no more dangerous than a fluffy kitten because one has a mere belief on Jesus. But Scripture says, even the demons believe and tremble; And Jesus essentially said he would cast a person bodily into hell-fire if they looked upon a woman in lust.

For in your world view: A believer is not under any kind of law whatsoever in regards to their salvation, which means a believer can abide in various unrepentant sins (like hate, adultery, and lying) and still make it into Heaven.

For when you tell believers they cannot stop sinning (and they believe you), guess what they are going to do? Sin.

When you tell believers that there are no consequences to their soul in the after-life to sin and any limited obedience they do have leads to heaven (as long as they believe in Jesus), guess what they are going to do (If they believe you)? Sin.

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ToBeLoved · Nov 2, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Yes, you are essentially saying to others without realizing it that God’s moral laws can be disobeyed.

#1. You deny that a believer can stop sinning grevious or serious sins like lying, adultery, hate, etc. This is just a sad excuse to hold on to sin when one does not have to.

#2. You reduced sin as being no more dangerous than a fluffy kitten because one has a mere belief on Jesus. But Scripture says, even the demons believe and tremble; And Jesus essentially said he would cast a person bodily into hell-fire if they looked upon a woman in lust.

For in your world view: A believer is not under any kind of law whatsoever in regards to their salvation, which means a believer can abide in various unrepentant sins (like hate, adultery, and lying) and still make it into Heaven.

For when you tell believers they cannot stop sinning (and they believe you), guess what they are going to do? Sin.

When you tell believers that there are no consequences to their soul in the after-life to sin and any limited obedience they do have leads to heaven (as long as they believe in Jesus), guess what they are going to do (If they believe you)? Sin.

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You are putting a lot of words in his mouth.

Why not respond to what he did actually say.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
You are putting a lot of words in his mouth.
Why not respond to what he did actually say.

Not true. I am merely following the logical conclusion of his beliefs. For one, he denies a believer can stop sinning. Second, he also does not think there are dire consequences in the after-life for the believer if they sin. He believes the saint can only obey God if they just believe in Jesus and not worry about the after-life consequences of sin because he thinks the believer is not under any kind of law whatsoever.

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stuart lawrence · Nov 2, 2015

It s

Jason0047 said:
Yes, you are essentially saying to others without realizing it that God’s moral laws can be disobeyed.

#1. You deny that a believer can stop sinning grevious or serious sins like lying, adultery, hate, etc. This is just a sad excuse to hold on to sin when one does not have to.

#2. You reduced sin as being no more dangerous than a fluffy kitten because one has a mere belief on Jesus. But Scripture says, even the demons believe and tremble; And Jesus essentially said he would cast a person bodily into hell-fire if they looked upon a woman in lust.

For in your world view: A believer is not under any kind of law whatsoever in regards to their salvation, which means a believer can abide in various unrepentant sins (like hate, adultery, and lying) and still make it into Heaven.

For when you tell believers they cannot stop sinning (and they believe you), guess what they are going to do? Sin.

When you tell believers that there are no consequences to their soul in the after-life to sin and any limited obedience they do have leads to heaven (as long as they believe in Jesus), guess what they are going to do (If they believe you)? Sin.

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It seems you missed the questions I put to you yesterday evening Jason. Don't worry, I will repost them later for you.
No need to respond to your points here as you are not quoting me, and ignoring what I did write about the christian in their heart wanting to obey as they have been born again. That core component of the new covenant makes the words I didn't write that you put into my mouth redundant

stuart lawrence · Nov 2, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Yes, you are essentially saying to others without realizing it that God’s moral laws can be disobeyed.

#1. You deny that a believer can stop sinning grevious or serious sins like lying, adultery, hate, etc. This is just a sad excuse to hold on to sin when one does not have to.

#2. You reduced sin as being no more dangerous than a fluffy kitten because one has a mere belief on Jesus. But Scripture says, even the demons believe and tremble; And Jesus essentially said he would cast a person bodily into hell-fire if they looked upon a woman in lust.

For in your world view: A believer is not under any kind of law whatsoever in regards to their salvation, which means a believer can abide in various unrepentant sins (like hate, adultery, and lying) and still make it into Heaven.

For when you tell believers they cannot stop sinning (and they believe you), guess what they are going to do? Sin.

When you tell believers that there are no consequences to their soul in the after-life to sin and any limited obedience they do have leads to heaven (as long as they believe in Jesus), guess what they are going to do (If they believe you)? Sin.

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You do know the measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you don't you?

stuart lawrence · Nov 2, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Not true. I am merely following the logical conclusion of his beliefs. For one, he denies a believer can stop sinning. Second, he also does not think there are dire consequences in the after-life for the believer if they sin. He believes the saint can only obey God if they just believe in Jesus and not worry about the after-life consequences of sin because he thinks the believer is not under any kind of law whatsoever.

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I wonder if you are not getting a bit desperate Jason due to not being able to respond to the questions put to you.
So how do you deflect from that? With the above I guess.

Let me repeat yet again. It is a two part covenant. You are born again into someone who in your heart wants to obey God, and because you do, you are not under a law of righteousness before God. That is the core of the christian faith

This is the covenant I will make with them after that time says the Lord
I will write my laws in their minds and place them on their hearts
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more
Heb 10:16&17

You only get the second part because the first part has taken place

Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
I wonder if you are not getting a bit desperate Jason due to not being able to respond to the questions put to you.
So how do you deflect from that? With the above I guess.

Let me repeat yet again. It is a two part covenant. You are born again into someone who in your heart wants to obey God, and because you do, you are not under a law of righteousness before God. That is the core of the christian faith

This is the covenant I will make with them after that time says the Lord
I will write my laws in their minds and place them on their hearts
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more
Heb 10:16&17

You only get the second part because the first part has taken place

The thing is I believe the Bible, but I do not believe you. A believer can't have it both ways. After regeneration: A believer either obeys God's Commands or they don't. You said before that no believer is perfect and they cannot stop from sinning. Are you retracting that claim? Also, there are many verses that I put forth and questions that you have not answered, as well. The thing is that I have been forth coming in answering your verses and questions (When I do have the time). If I missed a question, I will be more than happy to answer it if you repost it.

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Bible Highlighter · Nov 2, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
You do know the measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you don't you?

Well, you have already falsely accused me of believing things I do not believe multiple times already. If what I said was not true of what you believe, then please feel free to say so. I did not leave out the part that your belief states that a saint obeys under your current belief system. However, I also pointed out that you also believe that no believer can stop sinning, too. Which is a contradiction. You either obey or you don't obey. Christ either lives in the believer and does the work or Christ does not live within them and thereby no works or true obedience will be present. This is important to understand because Christ is the source of a person's salvation (1 John 5:12).

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True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

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