True And False Ecumenism

[Dominus Fidelis]

No I am not wondering why you are being mean, I don't particularly care why. Some people just are. I am pointing out that your response was not presented in a useful manner, nor did it have any value as far as proving your point.

You are correct it means something, we agree it means something, we believe that it refers to the Universal Church. Catholic means universal. It has always meant that, and regardless of what Augustine wrote it has never meant anything different. It is interesting to me that many in the Roman Catholic Church disagree with others using the word Catholic(universal) yet argue that they the RCC, should be able to use the term Orthodox(right thinking).

Again it is not my intention to debate here. If you believe that the word means something that it was never intended to mean then that is your prerogative, but don't blame someone else for appropriately using the word.

Its not your intent to argue and yet you say I am not proving my point? Riiiiight. Look, if I wanted to debate you and prove the point, I would, as I have done on CF countless times over the years. But alas, I tire of it...I'm merely wasting some keystrokes to point out that you can pretend to be whatever you want...outside of OBOB...but if you claim the name in OBOB, you are being incredibly disrespectful and you don't seem to care.

 

[Epiphanygirl]

Why do people want to be identified as Catholic if you don't believe, practice, and worship as we do?
It almost sounds like a hostile company takeover.

Thanks Shelb for posting the "Four Marks" of our Faith

 

[Photini]

If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13, CCC 813–822)
Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches (Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, and so on). The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church.

His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2).

Although some Catholics dissent from officially-taught doctrines, the Church’s official teachers—the pope and the bishops united with him—have never changed any doctrine. Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.

The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8, CCC 823–829)
By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23).

But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).

The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10, CCC 830–856)
Jesus’ Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20).

For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28).

Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19).

The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20, CCC 857–865)
The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2).

These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more —even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself.

Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.

 

[lismore]

. This is OBOB and I don't have to pretend in OBOB, ok?

Hi Dominus Fidelis


I hope you are well.

As a guest here, may I say a word to the wise? If this offends you please ignore me or delete this post.

Ephesians 4:2
Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.


Showing love and the goodness of Christ through your life might bear more fruit than well, arguing over extrapolated terms.

Lismore

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Hi Dominus Fidelis


I hope you are well.

As a guest here, may I say a word to the wise? If this offends you please ignore me or delete this post.

Ephesians 4:2
Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.


Showing love and the goodness of Christ through your life might bear more fruit than well, arguing over extrapolated terms.

Lismore

Well thanks for that, I guess...but this is not arguing over a term, this is defending the name of the Bride of Christ.

Besides, you don't know what goodness I show in my life, do you? This is a message board and the subject at hand is being dealt with in a manner I think is quite appropriate. I'm sick to death of people forcing us to call them Catholics and then coming in OBOB and doing the same. It is ridiculous.

 

[Epiphanygirl]

Well thanks for that...but this is not arguing over a term, this is defending the name of the Bride of Christ.

Well stated!
Our "Faith" is different then their "Belief"
While I'm a respector of persons, defending our Faith comes before my own "personal beliefs" and being charitable as possible. I'm pretty sure Dom feels the same, and just about any Catholic.

 

[No Swansong]

,

 

[plainswolf]

There is no intention to be disrespectful. Catholic means universal. I am sorry that you cannot see that this is how Colabomb uses the term as do I. If you intend to argue that we are not part of the Universal Church then argue with yourself I will not be part of that.

Besides I am pretty sure that most of the Orthodox Church sees both of us as protestants.

Hi jtbdad,

I think that what people are getting at is the fact that the term 'Catholic" though it does mean universal, has always been used historically specifically in reference, and to denote the one true Catholic Church which is governed by the Roman pontiff who is its visible head...

And it seems that in our modern age many other faiths have hijacked the this ancient reference used specifically in denoting, as used so many times in the writings of the early Church fathers, the one true Church which has the Roman Pontiff as its visible head, in order to somehow reconcile and justify their position with historical Christianity.

In other words, if the Protestant faith does not correspond with the faith of all of early Christianity-(Catholic), they try to change the manner and context in which the word 'Catholic' has always been used by all the early Church fathers in history in reference to the one true Church of Christ in order to somehow reconcile their different faith with early Christianity, which was the Catholic faith. "[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Where the Bishop is, there let the multitude of believers be; even as where Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church'' [St. [/font][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Ignatius of Antioch, 1st c. A.D] And the issue many take with the Protestant use of the word 'Catholic" in reference to religion, this is the fact that when it is used in such manner to describe their own differing faith and Church by Protestants, it is completely misleading..[/font]



Hope that shed some light on things..


God Bless!
Mark

 

[Rising_Suns]

I'm sick to death of people forcing us to call them Catholics and then coming in OBOB and doing the same. It is ridiculous.

Remember, as St. Augustine whom you quoted once said; "Unity in essential things, freedom in nonessential things, and charity in all things."

Blessings,

-Davide

 

[Paul S]

Remember, as St. Augustine whom you quoted once said; "Unity in essential things, freedom in nonessential things, and charity in all things."

Charity does not mean allowing non-Catholics to continue to call themselves Catholic.

 

[Rising_Suns]

Charity does not mean allowing non-Catholics to continue to call themselves Catholic.

My post was not in reference to that.

 

[Benedicta00]

There is no intention to be disrespectful. Catholic means universal. I am sorry that you cannot see that this is how Colabomb uses the term as do I. If you intend to argue that we are not part of the Universal Church then argue with yourself I will not be part of that.

Besides I am pretty sure that most of the Orthodox Church sees both of us as protestants.

Catholic does mean universal but that’s not all or only what it means. It means according the whole, the fullness and that would pertain to the fullness of truth. Christ’s Church was called Catholic because she is universally united through the fullness of what Christ taught to the apostles who in turn teaches us, in turn committed most of the teachings to writing.

Yes, after generations had passed since Luther broke form the Catholic Church and began the Lutheran Church the Catholic Church understands and realizes that we are all joined imperfectly through a valid baptism with Lutherans but the Church of Christ is not two (or three, or four, or five or six…) visible churches that operate separate and apart from one another who believe in different “revealed” truths.

Nor is the Church that Jesus Christ established only and just a invisible Church with no visible hierarchy or structure, it’s not just a lose body of believers. She is both, invisible made up of all the baptized and she is equally a visible hierarchy made up of the apostolic see, holy see.

You are a “c” catholic meaning the invisible body of Christ; you have been incorporated into the mystical body of Christ through baptism but you are not a “C” Catholic in union with the Holy See and that is who Christ’s bride is, that is who the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church is.

The Church of Christ is the bride of Christ and he does not have several brides, he has only one bride. Christ’s bride is the Church under the bishop of Rome- there is no other visible Church of Christ accept for the EO who are catholic through a valid legitimate apostolic succession but not in union. Lutherans do not have a valid legitimate apostolic secession.

Luther is your fonder, not Christ and his apostles. Luther was a Catholic priest who disobeyed the pope. He was not a bishop, he ordained no one to be a Catholic bishop or priest nor could he so he had no choice but to throw our doctrines and begin his own church apart form the Church that Jesus established. What he didnlt throw out was baptism, so through baptism believers are made Christians sharing a imperfect unity in the mystical body of Christ.

How can anyone honestly say they are Catholic when that refers to universally according to the whole fullness of Christian faith under the bishop of Rome and the apposite see when they flat out reject apostolic succession, most of teaching of the apostles and early Church fathers and the pope?

Believing in Christ is not what unites us perfectly, I’m sorry, but it is a great staring point to dialogue but it is not what being “one” as Christ prayed “May they all be one” is. It’s just not.

 

[Asimis]

There is no intention to be disrespectful. Catholic means universal. I am sorry that you cannot see that this is how Colabomb uses the term as do I. If you intend to argue that we are not part of the Universal Church then argue with yourself I will not be part of that.

Besides I am pretty sure that most of the Orthodox Church sees both of us as protestants.

And why don't you both just use the word Universal instead?

You see in spite of what the current postmodern mentallity may say, terms and labels do mean things. A Catholic is one that belongs to the Catholic Church, that is how it has always been and the way it should be.

 

[Orthodoxia]

I believe there are two ways that one can go about fostering Christian unity. The first is to remain inside the protective walls of the Heavenly Jerusalem (or, rather, on Earth, the fortress of the Church) and to reach out with our loving arms to bring in those lost sheep who are outside those walls so that they, too, might be able to live in and amongst His Truth. The second is to go outside these walls and to risk being away from the loving protection of our Mother, the Church, who guides us and guards us from straying into error. On the outside, one might stray and decide that the best way to bring a lost sheep into the fold is to compromise with that sheep. But the lost sheep is deceived if he believes that Truth can be compromised! Unfortunately, this second way is the way most who desire Christian unity go about achieving it. But the only way to unify Christians is for all Christians to enter the gates of the fortress of the Church who holds the one and only universal (Catholic) Truth. Therefore, we must live the Truth and reach out in love to invite others to join us so that they, too, might come to a knowledge of our Lord and be saved.

 

[plainswolf]

I believe there are two ways that one can go about fostering Christian unity. The first is to remain inside the protective walls of the Heavenly Jerusalem (or, rather, on Earth, the fortress of the Church) and to reach out with our loving arms to bring in those lost sheep who are outside those walls so that they, too, might be able to live in and amongst His Truth. The second is to go outside these walls and to risk being away from the loving protection of our Mother, the Church, who guides us and guards us from straying into error. On the outside, one might stray and decide that the best way to bring a lost sheep into the fold is to compromise with that sheep. But the lost sheep is deceived if he believes that Truth can be compromised! Unfortunately, this second way is the way most who desire Christian unity go about achieving it. But the only way to unify Christians is for all Christians to enter the gates of the fortress of the Church who holds the one and only universal (Catholic) Truth. Therefore, we must live the Truth and reach out in love to invite others to join us so that they, too, might come to a knowledge of our Lord and be saved.

AWESOME REPLY!




God Bless
Mark

 

[No Swansong]

,

 

[Epiphanygirl]

It has been pointed out to me that I do not have permission to debate here. And while the individual who did so was very un-Christlike in the manner they chose. they are correct I do not.

So I will answer this question and then leave you to pat yourselves on the back. (I do not mean this for everyone but only those who sent me e-mail)
We use the term Catholic not because we wish to be identified with the Church at Rome but because the creeds use the term Catholic. To us the word Catholic is an adjective not a noun.

Undestand, we do not view ourselves as seperate from the Church of Christ. We hold that the ecumenical councils were councils of the Church of Christ of which we are.

I could as easily ask a similar question. If I do not have the right to use the adjective Catholic, because it is "your term", why should Roman Catholics be permitted to use the adjective Orthodox?

My appreciation to all of those who intended to teach, even those with whom I disagree. To those who sent the e-mail, you certainly do not represent Christ well and I do not intend to respond to your railings. I would also add that if you send me another with the same use of language I will forward it to the administrators of this board.

Who wrote the creeds? Who held the ecumenical councils?...I'll give you a hint, it's starts with the letter "C"
Non-catholics still hold to the "creeds" because to not do so what put them outside of Christianity.

 

[Rising_Suns]

We use the term Catholic not because we wish to be identified with the Church at Rome but because the creeds use the term Catholic. To us the word Catholic is an adjective not a noun.

One must make the distinction here between "C"atholic and "c"atholic. While it is permissible for you to use the latter term if you choose to, the former is a title that applies only to those who are in submission to the Roman pontiff.

Blessings,

-Davide

 

[Asimis]

jtbdad,

I see that you are not being honest, that is not the right aproach to eccumenism. You see, one is a Catholic IF one remains within the Catholic Church and remaining within The Church is accepting and obeying all of her teachings.

I was baptized Catholic, but for most of mylife I was not a Catholic. Why? For two reasons, I did not obey the teachings of The Church and I had not received the Sacrament of Confirmaiton. Nor did I knew a thing about The Church for that matter. But then I did receive the Sacrament of Confirmation and with it I made the following statement.

I believe in everything The Catholic Church teaches.

That was what sealed the deal, that finally turned me into a Catholic. I could have lied about it, but I am a very honest person. Or I could have walked away from it and refuse to do it, but that is what I really believe.

You on the other hand, are not being honest here, you want to be a Catholic without being a Catholic, you like the name, just like some atheist like ot call themselves freethinkers even without being one. The thing is jtbdad, things don't work that way, if you say you accept the creeds and the councils then you are bound to accept everything that The Catholic Church teaches and if not then you must not call yourself a Catholic, it is that simple.


God Bless,

It has been pointed out to me that I do not have permission to debate here. And while the individual who did so was very un-Christlike in the manner they chose. they are correct I do not.

So I will answer this question and then leave you to pat yourselves on the back. (I do not mean this for everyone but only those who sent me e-mail)
We use the term Catholic not because we wish to be identified with the Church at Rome but because the creeds use the term Catholic. To us the word Catholic is an adjective not a noun.

Undestand, we do not view ourselves as seperate from the Church of Christ. We hold that the ecumenical councils were councils of the Church of Christ of which we are.

I could as easily ask a similar question. If I do not have the right to use the adjective Catholic, because it is "your term", why should Roman Catholics be permitted to use the adjective Orthodox?

My appreciation to all of those who intended to teach, even those with whom I disagree. To those who sent the e-mail, you certainly do not represent Christ well and I do not intend to respond to your railings. I would also add that if you send me another with the same use of language I will forward it to the administrators of this board.

 

[graysparrow]

Honest, the main cause of all divisions is pride. The main cause of union must be humbleness...

... and that from all 'parties' involved.