True and False Conversion (Everyone Please Read)

[Rick Otto]

excellent insight.
Well said.
Great post.

I'm more impressed with what you had to say than the article.
I thought it was a great article, but for me it is SO '90s.

One little problem I had with it was this passage. I found it just a tad confusing:
" The world is not caught in the dragnet of the kingdom of heaven; they remain in the world. The "fish" that are caught are those who respond to the gospel—the evangelistic "catch."
>Shouldn't it be more like...
All are caught in the dragnet of the judgement; they(the worldly, not realy believing) remain in the world. The "fish" that are KEPT(all are caught) are those who respond to the gospel—the evangelistic "catch. The are judged "innocent by proxy".
The gospel is declared by more than humans, and is heard around the planet(360 degrees), 24/7, 365.

 

[worldwidewordfamine]

First of all, you may not "feel" any different, but that doesn't mean you are or are not saved.

1. You must Believe that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah, who was born of a virgin , died on the Cross as the Final sacrifice for sins, rose again the third day and assended into heaven and sits on the right hand of God.
(note: if you believe God's Word then you shouldn't have any problem believing all this)

2. You must be sorry for your sins (the bad things you do or anything that displeases God)! You MUST repent of your sins Confessing them to God saying you are sorry for doing them and you don't want to do them any more.
(Note: If you are really sorry then you won't want to do them any more.

Side Note: To Quit sinning is like Quitting Smoking. You must Purpose in your heart that You Just aren't going to do it any more. and you may fall back into sin by accident or temptation, but you shouldn't knowingly decide to do something wrong. Deciding to sin when you know it is wrong is rebellion and rebellion is just as bad as WitchCraft (says the Bible).

3. ask for the Holy Spirit it come in a fill your life ( do this daily ).
The Holy Spirit will teach you all things that you need to know.
Have a question just pray and ask God. The holy Spirit will also bring things to your rememberance. The Gifts of God come from the Holy Spirit and you can't use them with out Him.

4. Ask God to put your Spiritual armour on (Daily and after you repent of sin).
YOur armour goes on your Spirit body and though you can not see it it is there protecting you from spiritual attacks from the Devil and his followers.

Repent of any sins as soon as you realize you have sinned and ask the Holy Spirit to bring any past sins to your rememberance so you can repent of them.

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

What is more important to grasp? Gods grace or our repentance?

 

[djbcrawford]

What is more important to grasp? Gods grace or our repentance?

Why does one have to be more "grasped" than the other? Without repentence what use is grace, and without grace what use is repentence?

 

[discernomatic]

I agree totally, but the same can be said of any style of worship/preaching - "see, I can thump the bible and go red while I preach..."

I can imagine you getting red...LOL! You got it! God understands the intentions of our hearts, any actions that are done for show will be seen through.

 

[discernomatic]

1. You must Believe that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah, who was born of a virgin , died on the Cross as the Final sacrifice for sins, rose again the third day and assended into heaven and sits on the right hand of God.
(note: if you believe God's Word then you shouldn't have any problem believing all this)

2. You must be sorry for your sins (the bad things you do or anything that displeases God)! You MUST repent of your sins Confessing them to God saying you are sorry for doing them and you don't want to do them any more.
(Note: If you are really sorry then you won't want to do them any more.

Side Note: To Quit sinning is like Quitting Smoking. You must Purpose in your heart that You Just aren't going to do it any more. and you may fall back into sin by accident or temptation, but you shouldn't knowingly decide to do something wrong. Deciding to sin when you know it is wrong is rebellion and rebellion is just as bad as WitchCraft (says the Bible).

3. ask for the Holy Spirit it come in a fill your life ( do this daily ).
The Holy Spirit will teach you all things that you need to know.
Have a question just pray and ask God. The holy Spirit will also bring things to your rememberance. The Gifts of God come from the Holy Spirit and you can't use them with out Him.

4. Ask God to put your Spiritual armour on (Daily and after you repent of sin).
YOur armour goes on your Spirit body and though you can not see it it is there protecting you from spiritual attacks from the Devil and his followers.

Repent of any sins as soon as you realize you have sinned and ask the Holy Spirit to bring any past sins to your rememberance so you can repent of them.

The way in which this is phrased sounds ritualistic to me, and much too complicated. Repenting of sins one would normally not remember doesn't seem to fall under the concepts of grace and freedom in Christ to me.

Also, I think that we put our spiritual armor on, it consists entirely of the Word of God, which we should get familiar with.

Some say that repentance must take place before or at the same time as salvation. I disagree. I was saved at about 10 years of age because I believed in the gospel (that is good news). I knew that sins are bad things we do, and knew that in that sense I had sinned, but did not repent consciously. I simply believed in Jesus' ability to make things right with God. I had as yet no deep concept of repentance, but a sense of wanting to do the right thing. Someone had me read key scriptures about the gospel and asked me if I believed what I had just read. I honestly answered, "yes", not to please the nice ladies that guided me to the gospel, but sincerely, and that was it. Belief in the gospel is enough to get saved. Repentance can follow when the person has a concept of it and is ready.

I see no need to complicate the gospel so that a child can no longer understand it. Even a mature Christian who has fully understood (if that is possible) the concepts of grace and repentance, need not go into such systematic prayers every day, continually trying to scrape off the sin that has gathered over the day or week before (or longer than that).

I led them with cords of human kindness, with ties of love; I lifted the yoke from their neck and bent down to feed them. Hosea 11:4

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." Matthew 11:28-30.

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Galatians 5:1.

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Why does one have to be more "grasped" than the other? Without repentence what use is grace, and without grace what use is repentence?

Why does one have to be more "grasped" than the other? Without repentence what use is grace, and without grace what use is repentence?

Indeedily doodily doo

Some grace would have been nice by WWF

But, grace. Always grace.

 

[djbcrawford]

Indeedily doodily doo

Some grace would have been nice by WWF

But, grace. Always grace.

I think it was there between the lines.

I though she made a nice brief summary of Christianity. Of course without grace it would all be for nothing.

 

[Exegete12]

We can have a true conversion, but it is holding that conversion that is important. And not just holding the doctrine of faith, but living it out in love to one another. For what's the point of having faith to remove mountains, if we do not have love in our heart.

St Paul said we are to hold onto the confession of our faith. That is a proactive statement.

 

[Scottish Joy]

but the reason people fall away is because they NEVER KNEW HIM in the first place.

AMEN! I love the simplicity of that statement. The gospel really isn't so complicated as religiosity would make it seem.

 

[Scottish Joy]

We can have a true conversion, but it is holding that conversion that is important. And not just holding the doctrine of faith, but living it out in love to one another. For what's the point of having faith to remove mountains, if we do not have love in our heart.

St Paul said we are to hold onto the confession of our faith. That is a proactive statement.

... only to a point. Our perseverance is a proof of the faith that's in our hearts. We don't need to worry about hanging onto our salvation through perseverance- if we are saved, it is through no merit of our own, and therefore salvation is secure! Praise God for that!

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand."
John 10:27-28

 

[Rick Otto]

that it's important to display the fruits of the Spirit, but Joy is fundamentaly correct in that our salvation does not in any way depend upon us.
This is typicaly seen as license to sin by those whose chief motivation is self-interest, but Paul addresses this perception:

Romans 5:20: Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rm6:1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

And again:
6:14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

We resist sin out of gratitude stemming from a renewed mind, not simply out of fear of destruction, the loss of what is supposed to be an eternal gift.

Hey Joy, you familiar with The Reformation?

 

[brother daniel]

http://omega77.tripod.com/beachyanswerstobibleverses.htm
Today, true and false is harder to distinguish than ever before in history -
according to Jesus' Own Words in the Gospel(test,test,test-read it yourself).
At first it is strange or ironic or difficult that for over 300 years, the apostles and disciples and followers of Yeshua, Jews and Gentiles, did not know about many of the doctrines in the churches today - and many many Jews today, believers and orthodox,can't understand 'christian' doctrines that oppose old and new testament Scripture, or they can't understand why so many are seemingly duped willingly
without checking it out themselves, sometimes not even just reading what the Word of G_d actually says instead of what people say it says.
So it is a wonder and no small miracle that any Jew today turns to Yeshua to be
healed, though many may in the near future if or as G_d's Plan comes about as
some think it will.
Remember, if you ever knew, that G_d entrusted the Scriptures to the Jews, and
for the gentiles salvation came to the world through the Jews as this was well-pleasing to G_d the Almighty Creator of all. The twisting of scripture and
deceit and corruption of the world church is well described in Scripture - it does not
take a scholar to see and understand the clear description of the true and false in
Scripture: it takes trust like a little boy trusting his father, according to Jesus' Own Word in all four gospels (Father G_d Himself will teach all the truth to those who
trust Him and are willing to obey Him unconditionally without drawing back - that is
Jesus' Own Promise in G_d's Word)
So let all who call on His Name to be healed return to Him with all their heart and
soul and life and strength and depend on Him for all understanding. Shalom to all
with this goal, G_d's Plan for their lives.

Research, check out, pray about, read what the Bible actually says about
obedience, works, spirit and salvation(this will surprise you).
Remember that as Paul wrote the letters to the ekklesia, he warned that the false
teachers and prophets and pastors, wolves in sheeps clothing - looking real but
fake from the inside out, tricking the congregations by outward appearance - were
already among the groups of true believers >>>already! years before 312 a.d.<<<

in short, the falling away, the apostate church, was already in power when
constantine made religion a state or government entity(constantine never never
gave any evidence of being a christian, he compromised with religious leaders to get them all on his side, pagan and, well, just pagan; they all got official pardon and
power to put to death the followers of Jesus who had to go into hiding frequently to
save their lives and to keep the Scripture safe-the religious leaders in power were
all fake by then and adapted the scripture for their control and purpose, under the
control, of course, of the the antichrist who deceives many still today.)
During the Reformation, much truth came to light and set free a great number of
believers; let the truth continue to be revealed according to G_d's Plan.
Come quickly L-rd Jesus!! YES, come quickly!

Why are you afraid to say God ..G-d just curious please tell me thanks Vince.

Beloved brethren
brother yeshuaslavejeff, appears to be Mesianic and influenced by the customs of Talmudic Pharisees. Follwing that custom is a slight deveation form the scriptures that tell us.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

But he has mad some very good points. The professing christians of historical record appear to be as hypocritical as the scribes and Pharisees of Jerusalem.

It is iniquity when we kill in the name of Christ , who taught us, "sin no more, to do no violance and turn the other cheek".

We war not against flesh and blood.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[Exegete12]

... only to a point. Our perseverance is a proof of the faith that's in our hearts. We don't need to worry about hanging onto our salvation through perseverance- if we are saved, it is through no merit of our own, and therefore salvation is secure! Praise God for that!

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand."
John 10:27-28

Yes, no one can snatch us out of the Father's hand.
But I don't think just because we say we are a Christian this makes our conversion safe. For we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. We can only retain it by the moral correspondence or faith.

Otherwise we may sound like Israel, i.e. the actual Israelites in bulk, must remain God's elect: that the Christ, whe He came, must come to exalt their race and nation ...

They refused to contemplate the spiritual risk of missing their vocation. Just because they had Abraham for their father, they thought they were safe.

 

[brother daniel]

Yes, no one can snatch us out of the Father's hand.
But I don't think just because we say we are a Christian this makes our conversion safe. For we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. We can only retain it by the moral correspondence or faith.

Otherwise we may sound like Israel, i.e. the actual Israelites in bulk, must remain God's elect: that the Christ, whe He came, must come to exalt their race and nation ...

They refused to contemplate the spiritual risk of missing their vocation. Just because they had Abraham for their father, they thought they were safe.

Beloved,
Your words ring true.
We also must obey Jesus or our faith is vain.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[djbcrawford]

Yes, no one can snatch us out of the Father's hand.
But I don't think just because we say we are a Christian this makes our conversion safe. For we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. We can only retain it by the moral correspondence or faith.

It always worried me, that while no-one can snatch us out, can we jump out ourselves?

 

[Exegete12]

It always worried me, that while no-one can snatch us out, can we jump out ourselves?

Well we can look at the parable of the prodigal son. He is first and foremost a son, in relationship, but falls out of fellowship (but not relationship), and then comes back into fellowship.

If someone backslides then there is a good chance they will wander on home.

If they apostate? Well I am unsure about that one, will they ever come back?. Thoughts?

 

[djbcrawford]

Well we can look at the parable of the prodigal son. He is first and foremost a son, in relationship, but falls out of fellowship (but not relationship), and then comes back into fellowship.

If someone backslides then there is a good chance they will wander on home.

If they apostate? Well I am unsure about that one, will they ever come back?. Thoughts?

What does apostate mean?

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Unsaved.

 

[brother daniel]

What does apostate mean?

A great falling away
One who commits apostasy is an apostate, or one who apostatises. In older Western literature, the term typically referred to baptized Christians who left their faith. Apostasy is generally not a self-definition: very few former believers call themselves apostates and they generally consider this term to be a pejorative. One of the possible reasons for this renunciation is loss of faith, another is the alleged failure of religious indoctrination and/or brainwashing.

Apostasy is to occur before the return of Jesus for the dead in Christ.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

With love in Christ
brother daniel