Truckers rail against new EPA rules mandating transition to ‘useless’ EV big rigs

[Hans Blaster]

Yes it’s a pity the power generation capacity is a set in stone thing that we can’t modify or build more of, wait, I build industrial infrastructure for a living and have worked on multiple new power plants. Guess I’m a part of the mighty force?

We acknowledge your power, oh might creator of electrical generation capacity.

 

[QvQ]

The kingdom of heaven runs on righteousness but the kingdoms of earth run on oil.

This kingdom is not going to replace an entire fragile infrastructure of oil based food production and deliver system with electric within the next 5 or 10 years no matter how many magic pens are waved over regulatory spells and potions.
Throw money at it? Money is paper and no matter how high the stack of paper dollars, it will take much longer than 5 or 10 years for electric to replace oil in this kingdom.
The penalty for the "mighty force" of electrical generation failing or even faltering at any point in the nations delivery system predicts dire consequences for the recipients of that delivery.

 

[QvQ]

What would the truckers be eating in this hypothetical general strike? Are they going to starve to death in protest? Are they going to stop the people who step up to replace them?

It is not the truckers striking. It is the trucks not working.

Consider the price of oil or the absence of oil.
The price of oil goes up, the price of everything goes up.
If there isn't any oil, nothing get delivered.

Oil is trucks. That is what fuels inflation or causes shortages.
If the electric trucks are inefficient or deficient in any aspect of technology then the entire system is adversely affected.
There is also the added expense of the electric trucks.
If a trucker cannot make a living and gives up on trucks, then the people in the cities cannot live.

 

[Desk trauma]

It is not the truckers striking. It is the trucks not working.

Consider the price of oil or the absence of oil.
The price of oil goes up, the price of everything goes up.
If there isn't any oil, nothing get delivered.

Oil is trucks. That is what fuels inflation or causes shortages.
If the electric trucks are inefficient or deficient in any aspect of technology then the entire system is adversely affected.

Quite the apocalypse you’re imagining, perhaps you should write a novel?

There is also the added expense of the electric trucks.
If a trucker cannot make a living and gives up on trucks, then the people in the cities cannot live.

Unlike the people in the country or truckers who are self sufficient when it comes to food, pharmaceuticals, clothing, building supplies…

 

[SimplyMe]

The kingdom of heaven runs on righteousness but the kingdoms of earth run on oil.

This kingdom is not going to replace an entire fragile infrastructure of oil based food production and deliver system with electric within the next 5 or 10 years no matter how many magic pens are waved over regulatory spells and potions.
Throw money at it? Money is paper and no matter how high the stack of paper dollars, it will take much longer than 5 or 10 years for electric to replace oil in this kingdom.
The penalty for the "mighty force" of electrical generation failing or even faltering at any point in the nations delivery system predicts dire consequences for the recipients of that delivery.

Where is the requirement to change everything to electric in 5 to 10 years? Even with the current EPA proposed rules that I've seen, it is more like 20 or 30 years -- and will likely be stretched beyond that.

 

[BPPLEE]

All people want clean air and clean water. It won't happen without taking the steps towards cleaning up the place. If the trucker can't earn a living driving, I suggest they go and find another line of work like line cook.

That’s kind, compassionate and empathetic. I’m glad you care about others

 

[QvQ]

Where is the requirement to change everything to electric in 5 to 10 years? Even with the current EPA proposed rules that I've seen, it is more like 20 or 30 years -- and will likely be stretched beyond that.

As of January 1, 2024, any new big rigs registered in California have to be powered by hydrogen or electricity. California’s Advanced Clean Fleets Regulation, which the California Air Resources Board approved on April 28, mandates that companies rapidly phase out diesel semi-trucks, starting with older models, and replace them with zero-emission trucks. The rule affects about 1.8 million truck, including ones operated by the U.S. Postal Service, FedEx, UPS and Amazon. Due to the large batteries fueling electric trucks, truckers would have to haul lighter loads and have to spend hours plugged in at charging stations, resulting in fewer deliveries and overtime hours. Consumers will ultimately pay for the overtime charges when they purchase the hauled goods and it will take longer to receive them. And, the paucity of charging stations is creating additional problems.

 

[SimplyMe]

As of January 1, 2024, any new big rigs registered in California have to be powered by hydrogen or electricity. California’s Advanced Clean Fleets Regulation, which the California Air Resources Board approved on April 28, mandates that companies rapidly phase out diesel semi-trucks, starting with older models, and replace them with zero-emission trucks. The rule affects about 1.8 million truck, including ones operated by the U.S. Postal Service, FedEx, UPS and Amazon. Due to the large batteries fueling electric trucks, truckers would have to haul lighter loads and have to spend hours plugged in at charging stations, resulting in fewer deliveries and overtime hours. Consumers will ultimately pay for the overtime charges when they purchase the hauled goods and it will take longer to receive them. And, the paucity of charging stations is creating additional problems.

This is a thread talking about EPA regulations, so I wasn't looking for a California example.

Of course, I also note you didn't like any article to these proposed regulations. I suspect it was because this was a proposal, from a few years ago, that was relatively quickly shot down. This proposal gave companies at least 20 years to change out their fleet to be fully zero emissions, even if they would no longer be able to purchase diesel trucks. So even if I was looking for a state example, this doesn't actually match your claim of 5-10 years.

 

[QvQ]

even if they would no longer be able to purchase diesel trucks.

IF a company can't register or license a diesel trucks then effectively, diesel trucks are banned.
No one would buy a vehicle that could not be licensed or registered.
California will renew registration for all vehicles registered prior to 1/1/24.
No new registration for any diesel truck that was not registered prior to 1/1/24.

And on the official California State website that is exactly what was enacted on January 1st 2024.

 

[Desk trauma]

And on the official California State website that is exactly what was enacted on January 1st 2024.

A Link would help.

 

[SimplyMe]

IF a company can't register or license a diesel trucks then effectively, diesel trucks are banned.
No one would buy a vehicle that could not be licensed or registered.
California will renew registration for all vehicles registered prior to 1/1/24.
No new registration for any diesel truck that was not registered prior to 1/1/24.

And on the official California State website that is exactly what was enacted on January 1st 2024.

Except, as you point out, companies can register diesel trucks, just not "new" ones. Or are you under the impression that diesel trucks only last for a couple of years?

Beyond that, you still didn't provide any type of link. I decided to go and look at the registration website for trucks and couldn't find anything about diesel tractor trailers (a more correct term than "big rig") being outlawed as of the first of this year. Instead, the best I could find is that they are enforcing emission limits on the trucks, and that "The ACF Regulation requires fleets that are well suited for electrification to reduce emissions through requirements to both phase-in the use of Zero-Emission Vehicles (ZEVs) for targeted fleets and requirements that manufacturers only manufacture ZEV trucks starting in the 2036 model year." On the front page of the website, it also states, "California is working to meet the Governor’s goal of one hundred percent zero-emission transportation where feasible by 2045."

So I'm not sure where you are getting that new diesel "big rigs" are not able to be registered any longer -- the website appears to state they will be allowed through 2036. And the goal (not any type of regulation or law) is to remove diesel trucks (only allow zero-emissions trucks) after 2045. Nothing there about getting rid of all fossil fuel trucks in the next 10 years, much less not allowing them currently.

 

[Hans Blaster]

As of January 1, 2024, any new big rigs registered in California have to be powered by hydrogen or electricity. California’s Advanced Clean Fleets Regulation, which the California Air Resources Board approved on April 28, mandates that companies rapidly phase out diesel semi-trucks, starting with older models, and replace them with zero-emission trucks.

Let's assume you are correct in your information.

The rule affects about 1.8 million truck, including ones operated by the U.S. Postal Service,

Delivery trucks.

FedEx,

Delivery trucks.

UPS

Delivery trucks.

and Amazon.

Delivery trucks.

Due to the large batteries fueling electric trucks, truckers would have to haul lighter loads and have to spend hours plugged in at charging stations, resulting in fewer deliveries and overtime hours. Consumers will ultimately pay for the overtime charges when they purchase the hauled goods and it will take longer to receive them. And, the paucity of charging stations is creating additional problems.

Got any citations for these weight/charging issues?

The USPS looked at purchasing ~90-95% electric for a new round of delivery trucks and clearly thought that these would not be issues in most locations.

 

[QvQ]

Got any citations for these weight/charging issues?

Do your own research, Google the issue as I could pick and choose articles to influence your understanding. I am merely giving "research" topics for anyone to search themselves. There are numerous websites about the Federal And California regulations, enacted and proposed.
I am merely stating my understanding of the issues.


Meanwhile:
"About half a dozen manufacturers offer battery-electric big rigs, but none offer more than about 200 miles of range. Charging can take hours, an impractical proposition for a driver who must cover 500 miles in a day."

If the freight is slowed both by the miles the truck can travel (200 rather than 500), reduced weight of freight per truck due to heavy batteries and hours spent recharging that will slow freight considerably and add to the cost of the delivered products.

There are 5 million big rigs in America. That is what our lives depend on.
Having bureaucrats whose sole understanding is what NPR tells them about "Climate Change" tampering with that very fragile system of diesel trucks is more terrifying than any claims about climate change.

It is not a question of finding another source of energy. Oil is a finite, non-renewable resource. Every trucker in America is aware that the studies done in the 1990s predicted the world would start running out of oil, abt 2050 +/-.
However, trusting the food supply of this nation to the current state of electric vehicle technology and government mandated accomplishment of the change, all in 10 years, could lead to major disruptions and soaring costs.

At the bottom of the California EPA website outlining the new laws, the big rigs, the interstate 80,000 lb rigs are also included in these mandates

 

[Pommer]

Due to the large batteries fueling electric trucks, truckers would have to haul lighter loads and have to spend hours plugged in at charging stations, resulting in fewer deliveries and overtime hours.

But you’ve missed the fluidity of the issue:
If EV delivery trucks are mandated, and a trucker cannot take as big of a load due to weight considerations, then there will have to be more deliveries made in the same amount of time or money will be lost.
So there’ll be a need for more trucks and truckers to accomplish this.

A since there’ll be a shortage of both, wages will rise.
Have faith in capitalism!

 

[Hans Blaster]

Do your own research, Google the issue as I could pick and choose articles to influence your understanding. I am merely giving "research" topics for anyone to search themselves. There are numerous websites about the Federal And California regulations, enacted and proposed.
I am merely stating my understanding of the issues.

You're making claims. I'll put as much credibility into them as I think you have. Your list of companies was list of companies using largely short range delivery trucks with home fleet bases. These are *exactly* the easiest kind of trucks to swap with electric ones.

 

[QvQ]

Have faith in capitalism!

Capitalism is not what Is

What is IS
Government regulators deciding to shut down what has been reliable source of electricity such as coal, then ordering and dictating that industry and other capitalistic entities Make It So.
Replace it "Now" because "we want it to be so."
The regulators seem to believe that all that needs to happen is "shut it down" and some other reliable, cheap and technologically perfected sources will sprout like magic mushrooms.
It is like ordering a country with model A's and T's, a country without gas stations to suddenly be driving Cadillacs and SUV's, before the Cadillac had been technologically perfected or perhaps even invented.
Regulators ordering it to be so doesn't make it so.

Meanwhile, destroying the existing grid, banning reliable delivery trucks, closing reliable sources of electricity is not going to produce an instant technology to replace it. This regulator meddling could cause the system to fail or falter.
The regulators are also tossing money in the streets, hoping this "solar outfit" or that "Ev maker" will magically produce a useable product just because the money is there.
The regulators are convinced that anything is possible with a government mandate and half a trillion bucks.

 

[Desk trauma]

Replace it "Now" because it is needs to be so.
The regulators seem to believe that all that needs to happen is "shut it down" and some other reliable, cheap and technologically perfected sources will sprout like magic mushrooms.

Not like coal has been on the way out for almost two decades with zero new plants being built and existing ones being replaced with natural gas all over the country…

 

[QvQ]

Not like coal has been on the way out for almost two decades with zero new plants being built and existing ones being replaced with natural gas all over the country…

Personally, I am betting on either nuclear or horses.

Why does California want to shut down natural gas electric plants
"Natural gas plants are a large source of greenhouse gases, which warm the planet, toxic gases like ammonia and formaldehyde, and nitrogen oxides, which contribute to Southern California's extreme smog. Nationally, natural gas plants account for about a third of all carbon emissions from energy production."

"During rolling blackouts in 2020, natural gas plants struggled in the heat, “resulting in power loss in combustion turbines, inlet air and cooling system stresses, steam tube leaks, and condenser pump failures,” the California Energy Commission reported"

 

[Hans Blaster]

Personally, I am betting on either nuclear or horses.

Why does California want to shut down natural gas electric plants

Because they are also bad. See the text you quoted below. It provides the answer to your own question.

"Natural gas plants are a large source of greenhouse gases, which warm the planet, toxic gases like ammonia and formaldehyde, and nitrogen oxides, which contribute to Southern California's extreme smog. Nationally, natural gas plants account for about a third of all carbon emissions from energy production."

"During rolling blackouts in 2020, natural gas plants struggled in the heat, “resulting in power loss in combustion turbines, inlet air and cooling system stresses, steam tube leaks, and condenser pump failures,” the California Energy Commission reported"

 

[Hans Blaster]

It is like ordering a country with model A's and T's, a country without gas stations to suddenly be driving Cadillacs and SUV's, before the Cadillac had been technologically perfected or perhaps even invented.
Regulators ordering it to be so doesn't make it so.

Cadallac is a brand and formerly an independent company before becoming part of General Motors. Cadillac actually made its first car *before* the Ford Model A was released. (Cadillac was formed by Henry Ford's other partners when his original company fell apart.)

The world's first purpose-built gas station was constructed in St. Louis, Missouri, in 1905 at 420 South Theresa Avenue. [wikipedia]

That is *before* the Ford Model T was produced.

Your historical analogies are bad and I thought you should know.