Trinity

[BornAgainChristian1]

I do belive in the divinity of the Son, but your examples are flimsy afterthoughts. Judaism did not and does not belive in a plural deity as I stated in the beginning.

You stated it wasn't taught or found in the OT in which I proved you wrong and I also proved that what you or the Jews believed/believe has no effect on what God's word stated/states.

 

[StanJ]

I do belive in the divinity of the Son, but your examples are flimsy afterthoughts. Judaism did not and does not belive in a plural deity as I stated in the beginning.

God is not a plural deity God is one. That Shema is stated throughout the Old Testament. God is three in ONE. Jesus was one with the Father the holy spirit is one with the father and they are one in a purpose and entity.

 

[Anguspure]

I do belive in the divinity of the Son, but your examples are flimsy afterthoughts. Judaism did not and does not belive in a plural deity as I stated in the beginning.

ELOHIM is a Hebrew plural noun. Bereshit bara ELOHIM.

 

[StanJ]

ELOHIM is a Hebrew plural noun. Bereshit bara ELOHIM.

Even without knowing that about the Hebrew word, it is clear in Genesis 1:26-27 that God had a plurality about Him.

 

[Colter]

You stated it wasn't taught or found in the OT in which I proved you wrong and I also proved that what you or the Jews believed/believe has no effect on what God's word stated/states.

What you illustrated is that there are shadowes of plural deity within the Hebrews redacted scriptures. My point was there isn't a book about the Trinity in the Old Testiment that explains God has a creator Son who would one day incarnate on earth, resurrect himself from the dead and return to heaven as God the Son. The Son of God has a Father and he is the Father of his own creation.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

What you illustrated is that there are shadowes of plural deity within the Hebrews redacted scriptures. My point was there isn't a book about the Trinity in the Old Testiment that explains God has a creator Son who would one day incarnate on earth, resurrect himself from the dead and return to heaven as God the Son. The Son of God has a Father and he is the Father of his own creation.

If they were "redacted" why are they still preserved in God's word the bible? Where do you get your foolish notions? Why must I continually repeat this same verse that is still in God's preserved word?

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

BTW you make many unfounded claims and are confused by facts that are presented directly from scripture? Why is that?

 

[Hoghead1]

If they were "redacted" why are they still preserved in God's word the bible? Where do you get your foolish notions? Why must I continually repeat this same verse that is still in God's preserved word?

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

BTW you make many unfounded claims and are confused by facts that are presented directly from scripture? Why is that?

There are, however, other interpretations of that passage from Isaiah. I believe I showed you some yesterday. For example, the above passage probably means that the messiah is the agent of God, through whom God's power flows. it does not necessarily mean the messiah is God. "The everlasting father" can also be translated ass the "father of everlastingness," meaning a king.

 

[Hoghead1]

If they were "redacted" why are they still preserved in God's word the bible? Where do you get your foolish notions? Why must I continually repeat this same verse that is still in God's preserved word?

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

BTW you make many unfounded claims and are confused by facts that are presented directly from scripture? Why is that?

The OT was in fact redacted from, earlier texts. That is supported by modern biblical scholarship.

 

[Hoghead1]

Only one person knows the truth about the Trinity...............God!

Does it really matter if we don't believe in the 'Trinity' as say the Catholic faith teaches or others teach?

Isn't the most important thing being that we believe in God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit, be it together or individually!? All that really matters is Our love and belief in God. Our love and belief in Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Yes, but are you talking your love of God or Gods? If you consider the Father, Son, and Spirit as three separate, unique personalities, then yes, you are talking about faith the Gods, no t one God.

 

[Hoghead1]

If we don't believe in the Trinity and then God is just a man and as a man he cannot be the mediator between God and man.

Yes, but as Mediator, is Christ really God, or a lesser god sent to do the Father's bidding, the Father being God, strictly speaking?

 

[Hoghead1]

God is not just a man though.

The world gets stuck in technicalities instead of raw faith. True faith in God the Father and God the Son. Thats all that matters in reality. Having faith in God.

You said 'true faith in God the Father and God the Son." That's just two. Well, what happened to the Holy Spirit?

 

[Hoghead1]

Yes I would imagine you would not see or believe biblical statutes and precepts knowing you lack the Holy Spirits discernment and can't seem to admit your claim as I pointed out is in error just like your predecessors the Jews. Now whether they/you believe it or not the triune God is mentioned throughout the OT starting in Genesis n the garden.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God (Elohim) said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Gen 11:7 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

OOPS again and again and again..........

Not so fast. Saying "let us" implies that there is more than one personality involved here. That is not monotheism or Trinitarian thinking, that is tritheism.

 

[Hoghead1]

Because the Jews thought that Christ would come back as a warrior to restore their Kingdom that Christ never wanted established in the first place they missed their Messiah when He did show Himself to them. So we know that they didn't except Christ as their Messiah because they believed in something that wasn't true or supported by the bible.

No, they were tight on with the OT. Later Christians read the Bible backwards, so to speak, and have projected meanings into the OT that were not intended.

 

[Hoghead1]

"I am in the Father and the Father in Me…"
"Whatever He (the Father) does, the Son does in like manner.:
"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives life, so also does
the Son give life to whomever He wishes.'

So many references in Scripture as in the case of the Gospel of St. John regarding a Trinity. The problem
is the understanding of three Gods into One God,,three distinct Persons into one complete person. That is the
mystery which requirers faith…….we can, with some reasoning from Scripture, that such an article of Faith is true.

AMDG

Yes, but the above quote does not mention the Spirit. That's the curious point here. Also teh Gospel of John never mentions the Spirit until chapter 13. Another curious point.

 

[Hoghead1]

It's really not a case of understanding English but rather a case of one's religious philosophy. If you are a "sola scriptura" person then you will probably fit the verses into your frame of reference, philosophy, life experiences, opinions, emotianal state etc. If you are a Calvinist, Lutheran, Russian orthodox, agnostic etc—— likewise, read the Bible and fit the verse into your life's philosophy.

Yes, that is very true. Nobody comes to Scripture, with a blank mind. Everyone reads Scripture some form of lens they bring to it.

 

[Hoghead1]

I think polytheism refers to a belief in many gods which are separate- worship of Apollo, Zeus, etc and quite frequently the worshippers do not attribute any divine attributes to their god. Some times one god is higher than the other god, such as Zeus.

They mystery, is based on the belief that the three Persons make up one Person God.
The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit are all equally Divine == One Person, i.e. GOD.

Humanly speaking, if we pray to the Holy spirit for some enlightenment—-we are praying to God truly all three.
Faith in the mystery, first, and then some sort of reasoning to uphold the faith.

If you try to figure out the Trinity first by reasoning——-you will fail and wind up with such false outcomes such as , "Yeah it sounds like polytheism."

The Trinity is largely an extra-biblical set of formulations. If the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are said to be three separate, unique Persons, then yes, you are preaching tritheism. No question about it. As to the Trinity being a big mystery, I think much of the "mystery" here is due to muddled thinking on the part of the fathers.

 

[Hoghead1]

That's called eisegesis, and is not the proper way to read scripture. See my signature.

That's called eisegesis, and is not the proper way to read scripture. See my signature.

Yes, but it happens all the time.

 

[Hoghead1]

You stated it wasn't taught or found in the OT in which I proved you wrong and I also proved that what you or the Jews believed/believe has no effect on what God's word stated/states.

No, you didn't prove him wrong, simply because you did not show anything from the OT to prove him wrong.

 

[Hoghead1]

God is not a plural deity God is one. That Shema is stated throughout the Old Testament. God is three in ONE. Jesus was one with the Father the holy spirit is one with the father and they are one in a purpose and entity.

Yes, but what does this "one with the Father" mean?

 

[Hoghead1]

Even without knowing that about the Hebrew word, it is clear in Genesis 1:26-27 that God had a plurality about Him.

Yes, but that doesn't denote a trinity. It probably denotes a residual of polytheism.