Trinity

[Penumbra]

This thread is in response to a tangent from the thread about whether God is perfect.

What is your definition of the trinity? Can any Christians here describe it in a detailed, reasonable way?

Philosophically, how does it work? Do you believe the trinity consists of three conscious beings, or one conscious being, or something else?

-Lyn

 

[david_x]

This thread is in response to a tangent from the thread about whether God is perfect.

What is your definition of the trinity? Can any Christians here describe it in a detailed, reasonable way?

Philosophically, how does it work? Do you believe the trinity consists of three conscious beings, or one conscious being, or something else?

-Lyn

The only reasonable way to describe the trinity is in paradox. He is three conscious beings AND one conscious being.

Nicene Creed:

We believe in One God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father, only begotten, that is of the substance of the Father. God of God, light of light, very God of very God, begotten and not made; Himself of the nature of the Father, by whom all things came into being in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate, was made man, was born perfectly of the Holy Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit. By whom he took body, soul and mind, and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance. He suffered and was crucified, and was buried and rose again on the third day and ascended into heaven with the same body and sat at the right hand of the Father. He is to come with the same body, and with the glory of the Father to judge the quick and the dead, of Whose kingdom there is no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the uncreated and the perfect, who spoke in the law and the prophets and the Gospel, Who came down upon the Jordan, preached to the Apostles and dwelt in the saints. We believe also in only one, catholic, and apostolic, holy Church, in one baptism of repentance for the remission of sins; in the resurrection of the dead, and in the everlasting judgement of souls and bodies, in the kingdom of heaven and in the life eternal.

 

[BobW188]

We cannot fully understand the Trinity. Period.

We can get some idea by analogy. One triangle must have three sides; but we can still perceive each side. It's no paradox to say that "the three are one," and it's no triangle if any side is detatched.
Father, Son and Spirit have also been described as Creator, Redeemer and Comforter, and the different functions imply at least some degree of independent conciousness, but since the three are one it's equally implicit that there is an underlying single conciousness. Unlike David, I don't find this paradoxical. Both answers are correct.

 

[Penumbra]

The only reasonable way to describe the trinity is in paradox. He is three conscious beings AND one conscious being.

Can you explain how it is one conscious being and three conscious beings?

Do you feel that the three elements each have a personality unique to themselves, or do they each have an identical personality?

-Lyn

We cannot fully understand the Trinity. Period.

We can get some idea by analogy. One triangle must have three sides; but we can still perceive each side. It's no paradox to say that "the three are one," and it's no triangle if any side is detatched.

I agree that this concept of a triangle is not a paradox. A triangle is not equivalent to one of its sides, so it's quite reasonable to say a triangle is three and one. It's one triangle, but has three sides.

My argument in the thread that spawned this one was that how many gods are in the trinity (one or three, monotheism or polytheism) depends on how one defines a god.

The triangle analogy is a bit lacking when considering the trinity, though.

There's a rather common illustration (made by Christians) that tries to describe the orthodox view of the trinity:

Using your triangle analogy, this picture is basically saying that side 1 of the triangle is a triangle, but not the same thing as the other two sides. Same thing for the other two sides- each side is a triangle, yet the sides are not the same thing. That is the part that is illogical. Instead of saying the Holy Spirit is 1/3rd of God, it's saying the Holy Spirit is God, and that the Son is God, and that the Father is God.

Father, Son and Spirit have also been described as Creator, Redeemer and Comforter, and the different functions imply at least some degree of independent conciousness, but since the three are one it's equally implicit that there is an underlying single conciousness. Unlike David, I don't find this paradoxical. Both answers are correct.

Thank your for adding some detail here to discuss.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by a single, underlying consciousness?

Would you say that Christianity is monotheistic in the same way that Judaism and Islam are monotheistic, where they have a very clear, indivisible, singular consciousness that is a god? Or would you say it is less monotheistic, than those two?

-Lyn

 

[david_x]

Can you explain how it is one conscious being and three conscious beings?

That's all there is to it. I can't compare it to anything because there is nothing impossible to compare it to.

Do you feel that the three elements each have a personality unique to themselves, or do they each have an identical personality?

-Lyn

I don't know that He has personalities...

 

[BobW188]

Keep in mind that any analogy is lacking. The triangle only establishes that it's possible for three discrete entities to also be one. As to monotheism or its extent, the simple fact is that most Jews and Muslims would disagree with us Christians that we are monotheistic.
You really hit on it when you say that it depends on how you - or we - define God.
What we really come down to is that most Christians are comfortable with the three-in-one concept. I am; but I both understand and respect the Jewish and Muslim viewpoint and, quite frankly, doubt that it bothers God.
Keep in mind, I enter this discussion as a trinitarian. Off the top of my head I find it hard to elaborate on the single, unitive conciousness and for now will just reiterate that it is implicit in the concept of trinity.
By the way, I'm not so sure about those "Is Nots" in your triangle. I think "differs from" is closer to the truth. Though it's true that I "is not" you and you "is not" me, that we can have this discussion arises from what we share: a common humanity that bridges differences in age, gender, life experience and much else. Again, the analogy falls short. It is the pointing finger, not the Moon.

 

[Washington]

The Trinity is one of those notions, like an omnipotent and omniscient god, that, while sounding nice, is actually a bankrupt idea because it's rational devolves into nonsense. Want to describe the nature of X, then you'd better find the appropriate terms and speech craft to do so, otherwise you're not only misleading the reader, but inviting justifiable criticism . . . as is the case here. Words have specific meanings, and if they don't do their subject justice then they don't deserve to be used. If the relationship between the father, son, and holy spirit is sooo foreign to anything we can perceive, then leave it at that rather than stumble over yourselves trying to explain it in terms that ultimately fail because of their illogic.

Just a suggestion. Personally, as an agnostic, I find the issue kind of amusing.

 

[Penumbra]

That's all there is to it. I can't compare it to anything because there is nothing impossible to compare it to.

I don't know that He has personalities...

Well, I started this thread mainly so we could continue our discussion without interrupting SUM's thread. If you are unwilling or unable to continue to discuss this concept, then we have little left to talk about.. To be honest, the trinity has never been a particularly fascinating point to me about Christianity or religion, so I am ok with not continuing it.

Keep in mind that any analogy is lacking. The triangle only establishes that it's possible for three discrete entities to also be one. As to monotheism or its extent, the simple fact is that most Jews and Muslims would disagree with us Christians that we are monotheistic.
You really hit on it when you say that it depends on how you - or we - define God.
What we really come down to is that most Christians are comfortable with the three-in-one concept. I am; but I both understand and respect the Jewish and Muslim viewpoint and, quite frankly, doubt that it bothers God.
Keep in mind, I enter this discussion as a trinitarian. Off the top of my head I find it hard to elaborate on the single, unitive conciousness and for now will just reiterate that it is implicit in the concept of trinity.
By the way, I'm not so sure about those "Is Nots" in your triangle. I think "differs from" is closer to the truth. Though it's true that I "is not" you and you "is not" me, that we can have this discussion arises from what we share: a common humanity that bridges differences in age, gender, life experience and much else. Again, the analogy falls short. It is the pointing finger, not the Moon.

If you find it hard to elaborate how a single consciousness unifies them, that's ok. If you agree that how many gods are in the trinity depends on how one defines a "god", then we agree on the main point anyway.

As for that diagram I showed, that's not one I made. It's a very common diagram that many Christians use in an attempt to explain their concept of a trinity. If you google "trinity diagram" and do an image search, you'll see a tremendous number of them. I just picked the first that was small enough to fit here. Your statement of "differs from" may be a better choice. I've only checked some of those diagrams, I'm sure some of them use different language than others.

-Lyn

 

[Hentenza]

This is OT to this forum.

Penumbra, if you want to discuss the Trinity please post your question in the Exploring Christianity forum (Link). Pm me if you have any questions.

Thread Closed.