Trinity

[Swart]

I believe God created a male spermazoid that he used to fertilize Mary's egg with, thus resulting in the fetus that became the baby Jesus. I do not believe Jesus existed before he was born. I believe Jesus is the new creation of God to replace the old creation, adam or all of us. we are a new creation in christ Jesus who is the new creation or second adam of God.Jesus is the son of God because God provided the spermazoid to fertilze Marys egg. Jesus is the son of man because Mary provided the egg and he there fore is a descendant of david on his mothers side. Jesus grew in grace and favor with God and after the devil tempted him for 40 days and nights god took up residence in Jesus and annointed him for his ministry . God did all the miralces and spoke in jesus and gave jesus words to speak. people saw god when they saw jesus because god was so fully manifestedd in Jesus. Jesus is the visible image of the invisible god. Jesus is the only way we can see God. and we see God in jesus because God is in christ manifesting himself to us. Jesus was sinnless and therefore died for us and was therfore accepted by god as payment for our sins if we accept Jesus.

<Sorry, I don't have scriptures with me at the moment, so I'll have to paraphrase>

When Jesus was asked who he was, he said "I AM THAT I AM". The Jews then took up stones to stone him for blasphemy. This is because "I AM" is the phrase used by Jehovah to identify himself. Jesus was saying he was Jehovah.

In Isaiah, we read (in paraphrase):I am the Lord Jehovah, besides me there is no Saviour.

Jesus says similar words, again identifying himself as Jehovah.

There are ample other scriptures to demonstrate that Jesus lived before he was born, was [a] God, and that the children of Israel dealt exclusively with him.

As for the actually manner of Mary's conception, I don't really care that much; but your viewpoint is enlightening. I also agree that Jesus grew in Grace during his mortality.

 

[jessedance]

swart;

Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.

We believe this verse means the woman is Mary the mother of Jesus who compassed a man or went around a man and received male sperm not from a man but from God who created it (created a new thing, its past tense to show the certanty that it will happen , a hebrew language device) also

also, jesus said "I and my Father are one" meaning one in purpose, for God and Jesus are one the same way the church is to be one, i.e. one in purpose.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

A woman has no seed the male has the seed . it was called her seed here because the seed originated in her womb where god created it thereby making it her seed in a sense.

When Jesus was asked who he was, he said "I AM THAT I AM".

Hebrews 1:2 in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages; God spoke to us and to them jews in his son. it was God in christ saying I AM. Corinthians II 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
god was in christ performing the miracles teachingthe doctrine, healing the sick, talking to people.
God and Jesus are one in the same way that the church is to be one, which is one in purpose,

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

Because Jesus and god were one Jesus could claim to be the only savior and God could too. jesus offered himself as an etenal sacrifice for our sins thus making him our savior and god accepted Jesus offer as payment for our sins thus making him our savior.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

I believe in One True God in 3 persons. The unity of God that I embrace is far more than just the unity of purpose, but unity in purpose is part of this unity. The thing is I can embrace both halves of your above statement. That is why I say this is not quite simple.
You are not suggesting that there is a difference in the definition or even connotation between the word "person" and "personage" are you?

Charity, TOm

Yes, personage would mean a seperate God according to Christian belief on the trinity. In other words, if they are personages (like JS claimed), then they are 3 different gods rather than 1 God in three persons. Also one very important thing that I just realized I did not even mention is that in the Christian trinity...God the father is spirit, not flesh and bone.

Grace

 

[Swart]

Jessedance:

I'm not sure what your point is. That may be just because it is late and I am tired zzzz.

It sounds to me like you are saying God & Jesus are separate, yet one, but separate, yet still one.

I still find it difficult to understand what people mean when they say they believe in the Trinity. I'm fully prepared to admit the difficulty is mine. I suppose this is why many LDS equate Trinitarianism with Modalism: Modalism they can understand.

Conversely, I find it strange that non-LDS don't understand what we believe about the Godhead: Equating Godhead with Polytheism - which we find just as heretical as most mainstream Christians find Modalism is.

 

[TOmNossor]

Yes, personage would mean a seperate God according to Christian belief on the trinity. In other words, if they are personages (like JS claimed), then they are 3 different gods rather than 1 God in three persons. Also one very important thing that I just realized I did not even mention is that in the Christian trinity...God the father is spirit, not flesh and bone.

Grace

HappyinHisgrace,

As I pointed out in an above post, definition of terms is very frequently a problem when non-LDS Christians and LDS dialogue.

To me “personage” and “person” really mean the same thing.

However, I can accommodate your definitions to make this easier.



I do not believe in three separate and distinct “personages” that are Gods.

I do believe in the one true triune God who is three persons and one God.



Concerning the flesh and bones aspect, I dealt with this above, but it is not pertinent to the divinity of God.



Now, my question to you. Joseph Smith did not touch God the Father or God the Son in the sacred grove. So their “flesh and bone-ness” was not evidence by this theophany. Is is possible for God the Father and God the Son to appear as two persons standing side by side as they did to Joseph Smith within your understanding of the Trinity.

Two things I am not asking for and you may mention them, but please answer the question based upon the third that I really want.

• I do not want your opinion on the validity of the first vision.
• I do not want a discussion on “seeing God the Father” and dying.
• I do want to know of the oneness that you espouse in your Trinity allows for God the Father and God the Son to appear as two persons standing side by side.

Charity, TOm

 

[trinity2359]

trinity

I see your 'LDS' icon, so I am assuming your beliefs are the same as mine. Jesus Christ, from an LDS perspective, has been part of the Godhead from the beginning. He is the God of the Old Testament. He is the Co-Creator of the earth with our Heavenly Father.



Welcome to Christian Forums, bytheway!

Thank you for the welcome!
I am currently an inactive LDS. Let me clarify my stance:
According to LDS doctrine, even God the Father hasn't always been God (Gospel Principles pg 305) and when He was exalted - he created Jesus as his first creation. Therefore Jesus wasn't part of the Father's Godhead until his creation - however brief that time period might have been.

Regardless of my religious affiliation, I personally have issues with Jesus being part of the Godhead. Jesus is not the Jehovah of the OT

----
Psalm 110
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. (KJ)

Hebrews 1
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

AND

Isaiah 61
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;


Luke 4
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

LORD = Jehovah

---

Again, thanks for the welcome.

 

[trinity2359]

Only the Father, who is commonly known as Jehovah in modern day common English, is referred to as the Almighty God.

Jesus did not know the day or the hour of the last day, when Matthew was written, thus he is not Almighty God.

Jesus can be referred to as God in the sense that he is powerful, just as Satan is referred to as god. Many other persons and things are gods to different people.

But the Father and Son are two different persons.

A couple become one when they get married but they are not actually the same person. Jesus prayed that all his followers would become one or rather united (not disunited as the churches currently are), just as he and his Father are one.----The context is important.

Thomas may have said My God with reference to Jesus, but he certainly did not mean his Almighty God Jehovah, the heavenly Father, whom he often heard Jesus pray to and his Jewish heritage worshiped for thousands of years.

Jesus was created as he is known as the first born of all creation.

The Father is from everlasting to everlasting. In other words he did not have a beginning.

Jesus was dead for approx. 3 days.

John chapter 17 is a prayer. Jesus is praying to his heavenly Father. Jesus is on earth. Jehovah is in heaven. Verse 3 tells us that our everlasting welfare is hinged upon our knowing two persons. Jehovah, our heavenly Father, and Jesus, his son.

Yes, there are a few scriptures in the Bible that one may use to prove that Jesus is Almighty God. Just as there are a few scriptures in the Bible that the homosexual agenda uses to promote homosexuality.

By far, the biggest stumbling block, is the divine name, Jehovah. Most English Bibles have removed it and have substituted it with either LORD or GOD in all capital letters. Please compare Psalm 83:18 in an older King James Bible with a newer King James Bible.

If someone said the President was in town. You might automatically think of George Bush. But President could also refer to Bill Gates. Can you see how important the name is. One could become confused.

Some will say, oh, the name Jehovah is not important. But Jesus did not think so. Why the very first thing he told us to pray for in the model prayer, the Lord's Prayer is for God's name to be hallowed or be made sacred. God's name was important to Jesus and he used it and said he would make it known.

It may not be the exact proper pronunciation, but is the name Jeremiah, Jacob, Jesus, Joseph, Mary, Joshua? NO, but these are common modern day English pronunciations, just as Jehovah is for God Almighty.

Yeah - somebody gets it!! God bless you, or rather, Jehovah bless you!!

 

[happyinhisgrace]

I do want to know of the oneness that you espouse in your Trinity allows for God the Father and God the Son to appear as two persons standing side by side.

Figurative which represents athority and position. Jesus figuratively stands "on the right hand" of the Father because He is equel to God the father, they have the same athority, diety, position, essence, being.

Grace

 

[TOmNossor]

I do want to know of the oneness that you espouse in your Trinity allows for God the Father and God the Son to appear as two persons standing side by side.

Figurative which represents athority and position. Jesus figuratively stands "on the right hand" of the Father because He is equel to God the father, they have the same athority, diety, position, essence, being.

Grace

My view of the oneness of God is explained in post 12 of this thread. I could elaborate if you have any questions.

I believe your answer suggests that God the Father and God the Son could not appear as two persons, but I am not sure that is what you said.

Does the nature of the oneness of God preclude the first vision?

Charity, TOm

 

[Doc T]

I am currently an inactive LDS. Let me clarify my stance:
According to LDS doctrine, even God the Father hasn't always been God (Gospel Principles pg 305) and when He was exalted - he created Jesus as his first creation. Therefore Jesus wasn't part of the Father's Godhead until his creation - however brief that time period might have been.

Trinity2359, welcome. Could you clairify your statement for me. I just read the chapter 47 in Gospel Principles entitled Exaltation (which includes page 305) and I did not get from that chapter what you stated above.

Regardless of my religious affiliation, I personally have issues with Jesus being part of the Godhead. Jesus is not the Jehovah of the OT

While the scriptures you quoted certainly lead one to believe that Yahweh, in those instances, is not referring to Christ. What about the other OT scriptures that seem to say the opposite? How do you rationalize them?

Thanks for your reply.

Doc

~

 

[chaindog]

In Isaiah, we read (in paraphrase):I am the Lord Jehovah, besides me there is no Saviour.

Jesus says similar words, again identifying himself as Jehovah.

Where in Isaiah is this? I did a search for Jehovah and Saviour and couldn't find it.

I do not recall Jesus ever saying he was Jehovah besided the vague I AM reference in John... but if I'm wrong could someone point out my error?

Chaindog

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Where in Isaiah is this? I did a search for Jehovah and Saviour and couldn't find it.

I do not recall Jesus ever saying he was Jehovah besided the vague I AM reference in John... but if I'm wrong could someone point out my error?

Chaindog

Hi chaindog, I do not know if this is what Swart is talking about or not but in the KJV of the Bible, the way it was translated, it was translated that LORD refers to Jehovah and God to Elohiem. There are many places in the KJV where LORD (Jehovah) calls himself God "Elohiem". If you want to read a detailed summery on it, I suggest irr.org. That site has a really good article on it that explains it much better than I could.

God Bless,
Grace

 

[chaindog]

Hi chaindog, I do not know if this is what Swart is talking about or not but in the KJV of the Bible, the way it was translated, it was translated that LORD refers to Jehovah and God to Elohiem. There are many places in the KJV where LORD (Jehovah) calls himself God "Elohiem". If you want to read a detailed summery on it, I suggest irr.org. That site has a really good article on it that explains it much better than I could.

God Bless,
Grace

Ok, forgive me if I sound stupid but I thought that Elohiem was part of God's name... Jehovah Elohiem. How does this tie into Jesus stating that he is God? Again, my little Biblical knowledge is self taught so let me know if I totally missed something here.

 

[skylark1]

Exodus 6:7

And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

​

Jehovah (or Yahweh) is translated here as Lord, and Elohim is translated as God. So substituting these words we have:

And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God ('elohiym): and ye shall know that I am the LORD (Jehovah) your God ('elohiym), which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.


​

One God.




When Moses asked God what his name was, God replied:

Exodus 3:14

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

​

Later, Jesus said:

John 8:58

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

​

They wanted to stone him because he had claimed to be God.

 

[trinity2359]

Thanks for the welcome, Doc. I'll be glad to answer your questions.

Trinity2359, welcome. Could you clairify your statement for me. I just read the chapter 47 in Gospel Principles entitled Exaltation (which includes page 305) and I did not get from that chapter what you stated above.



While the scriptures you quoted certainly lead one to believe that Yahweh, in those instances, is not referring to Christ. What about the other OT scriptures that seem to say the opposite? How do you rationalize them?

Thanks for your reply.

Doc

~

How God Became God On page 305 in Gospel Principles it reads:
"After We Have Endured to the End
What happens when we have endured to the end in faithful discipleship to Christ? The Lord has said, “If you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God” (D&C 14:7). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, “If we will continue in God; that is, keep his commandments, worship him and live his truth; then the time will come when we shall be bathed in the fulness of truth, which shall grow brighter and brighter until the perfect day” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36).

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348).

This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46).

This tells me that God the Father was not always God.

Page 11 of GP states that Jesus was the first creation of God the Father:

Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ (see D&C 93:21), so he is literally our elder brother (see Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 26). Because we are the spiritual children of our heavenly parents, we have inherited the potential to develop their divine qualities. If we choose to do so, we can become perfect, just as they are.

Therefore, if God the Father's first act as God was to create Jesus - then there was a time when God the Father was God by himself. I am still confused as to LDS doctrine when Jesus became God - before the creation of the world, at the Council when he proposed his plan of atonement, or after his earthly death and ressurection?

Hope that answered question #1. Now for question 2... Can you provide some references for me to consider?

 

[chaindog]

Exodus 6:7

And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

​

Jehovah (or Yahweh) is translated here as Lord, and Elohim is translated as God. So substituting these words we have:

And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God ('elohiym): and ye shall know that I am the LORD (Jehovah) your God ('elohiym), which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.


​

One God.




When Moses asked God what his name was, God replied:

Exodus 3:14

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

​

Later, Jesus said:

John 8:58

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

​

They wanted to stone him because he had claimed to be God.

Right. I understand that Jesus claims to be God in John. However, it is my understanding that Jesus never claims to be God beside in John. So then, I assume that I am correct in saying that Jesus doesn't claim to be Jehova anywhere else. I would welcome scripture contradicting this statement.

My own feelings on the matter is that the author of John was a bit overzealous in his praise for Jesus and called him God. One reason I believe this is because he never claims to be God anywhere else. Much of Jesus's message is repeated over and over again... but not this point. So I put it off to being an inconsistancy and quite possibly an editing job by someone in the Nicean Council.

Chaindog

 

[Swart]

Where in Isaiah is this? I did a search for Jehovah and Saviour and couldn't find it.

I do not recall Jesus ever saying he was Jehovah besided the vague I AM reference in John... but if I'm wrong could someone point out my error?

Chaindog

I have my scriptures now!

Note that in the KJV, the tetragrammaton YHWH is translated as LORD excpet for four places, where it is translated as JEHOVAH. When you see LORD, read JEHOVAH.

Isaiah 12:2 "...for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation."

Isaiah 43:11 "I, even, I am the LORD; and besides me there is no saviour."

Isaiah 45:17 "But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation..."

Ex 3:14 Gives the refernce for I AM

Although this does seem mirky in English. In Hebrew, Jehovah is clearly stating the name by which he will announce himself when he comes amongst them. There is a hard to follow thread here that Jehovah can be known by other names.

The name "I AM" which is capitalised in both John 8:58 and Ex 3:14 to represent a Hebrew form that is not available in English, used to identify deity. The reference in the Septuagint is identical to the reference in John. Whilst in English, it is not that obvious, in the texts it is, which is why the translators captilised the statement.

Ex 6:3 Explains it was Jehovah that appeared to Abraham as "God Almighty"

 

[chaindog]

I have my scriptures now!

Note that in the KJV, the tetragrammaton YHWH is translated as LORD excpet for four places, where it is translated as JEHOVAH. When you see LORD, read JEHOVAH.

Isaiah 12:2 "...for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation."

Isaiah 43:11 "I, even, I am the LORD; and besides me there is no saviour."

Isaiah 45:17 "But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation..."

Ex 3:14 Gives the refernce for I AM

Although this does seem mirky in English. In Hebrew, Jehovah is clearly stating the name by which he will announce himself when he comes amongst them. There is a hard to follow thread here that Jehovah can be known by other names.

The name "I AM" which is capitalised in both John 8:58 and Ex 3:14 to represent a Hebrew form that is not available in English, used to identify deity. The reference in the Septuagint is identical to the reference in John. Whilst in English, it is not that obvious, in the texts it is, which is why the translators captilised the statement.

Ex 6:3 Explains it was Jehovah that appeared to Abraham as "God Almighty"

But no reference is made to Jesus being God in Isaiah. Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see how this indicates anything specifically about the Trinity (except the John-Exodus connection).

 

[Swart]

But no reference is made to Jesus being God in Isaiah. Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see how this indicates anything specifically about the Trinity (except the John-Exodus connection).

Isaiah 43:11 "I, even, I am the LORD; and besides me there is no saviour."

Acts 3:12 "..for ther is none other name given among men, whereby we must be saved." (reference to Christ)

Who is the saviour? Jesus is.

Isaiah 43:3 "For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour:"

 

[chaindog]

Isaiah 43:11 "I, even, I am the LORD; and besides me there is no saviour."

Acts 3:12 "..for ther is none other name given among men, whereby we must be saved." (reference to Christ)

Who is the saviour? Jesus is.

Isaiah 43:3 "For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour:"

This seems a bit of a stretch. I take it you are saying that because Christ is the saviour, and God says He is the Savior, that it must follow that Christ is God? I don't necessarly see the two saviour references as being equal. Besides, Jesus isn't saying that he is God here.