Trinity -sophistry?

[CryptoLutheran]

The Trinity's really not that difficult. It just requires getting and understanding some of the lingo used in the theology. Understanding, for example, Ousia (substance, nature, essence or being) and Hypostasis ("person", understanding, fundamental reality of a thing or subsistence) clears a lot up.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Tinker Grey]

Believing in something that doesn't make sense doesn't make sense. If you don't understand the trinity (and I've never heard a version of it that someone else doesn't declare heresy), then by claiming to believe it is merely an assent to a set of words "There is a trinity."

It's rather pointless to agree to that which one doesn't understand (unless someone is holding a gun to your head).

 

[durangodawood]

Believing in something that doesn't make sense doesn't make sense. If you don't understand the trinity (and I've never heard a version of it that someone else doesn't declare heresy), then by claiming to believe it is merely an assent to a set of words "There is a trinity."

It's rather pointless to agree to that which one doesn't understand (unless someone is holding a gun to your head).

But its not all-or-nothing. Of course I wouldnt believe something that was totally incomprehensible.
.
I can grasp the basic claim of the Trinity. How it possible is the mystery.
.

 

[razeontherock]

For example stating God is King doesn't show a different person, then stating God is the Creator. They are denoting the same being.

And each person of the Trinity is still "of the same Being." This is firmly entrenched in the Creeds, and it appears your confusion lies in thinking God is presented as being divided. He isn't.

 

[Tinker Grey]

But its not all-or-nothing. Of course I wouldnt believe something that was totally incomprehensible.
.
I can grasp the basic claim of the Trinity. How it possible is the mystery.
.

Granted, to a degree. However, the very concept of the Christian Trinity is incomprehensible. It is not enough to say that there are three of them or that they cooperate. You must affirm that they are all God but not each other, that they exist simultaneously (not modally), distinct but not separate, etc.

To believe in the Trinity without resolving the inherent contradictions is akin to saying merely that there is a Christian concept called the Trinity which I, as a Christian, am bound to affirm and therefore do so--but don't ask me what it means.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Granted, to a degree. However, the very concept of the Christian Trinity is incomprehensible. It is not enough to say that there are three of them or that they cooperate. You must affirm that they are all God but not each other, that they exist simultaneously (not modally), distinct but not separate, etc.

To believe in the Trinity without resolving the inherent contradictions is akin to saying merely that there is a Christian concept called the Trinity which I, as a Christian, am bound to affirm and therefore do so--but don't ask me what it means.

I don't really see the contradiction.

You and I share in a substance: Human being. However we are each distinct iterations of that same substance.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit also share in a substance: Deity. However not three iterations of God, but a single and undivided substance.

That's not a contradiction, and it's really not that difficult to understand. It may require expanding our imaginations a bit due to unfamiliarity with such a notion, but there's nothing inherently contradictory in the statements.

I've spent years studying Trinitarian theology, reading the ancient Fathers' writings, going over the Creeds and confessions, various works by theologians old and modern and have had more conversations in regard to Trinitarian theology than I could even hope to count. If there's one constant that I've noticed is that I keep hearing that it's all simply too difficult to understand. It's really not. It just takes doing a little extra homework and being willing to use a little extra imagination given a lot of the abstract ideas involved.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[razeontherock]

However, the very concept of the Christian Trinity is incomprehensible.

I really don't find it difficult.

It is not enough to say that there are three of them

I think this might be your difficulty; it is incorrect to say there are "3 of them." God is still One.

 

[SanFrank]

I really don't find it difficult.

I think this might be your difficulty; it is incorrect to say there are "3 of them." God is still One.

I don't find it difficult either, perhaps because we accepted the message of Christ and they have not.

Names and attributes are from a qur'an perspective of its ilah. (and Ar Rahman, by the way, is a different arabic deity and not "gracious").

The Lord is the son of man, son of G*d, the Word, Messiah, Immanuel (god is with us)... I think a person needs to be born of the Spirit to be able to comprehend trinity.

Thinking of G*d as three (distinct) persons is a dangerous game and a mockery.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

I don't find it difficult either, perhaps because we accepted the message of Christ and they have not.

Names and attributes are from a qur'an perspective of its ilah. (and Ar Rahman, by the way, is a different arabic deity and not "gracious").

The Lord is the son of man, son of G*d, the Word, Messiah, Immanuel (god is with us)... I think a person needs to be born of the Spirit to be able to comprehend trinity.

Thinking of G*d as three (distinct) persons is a dangerous game and a mockery.

God is three distinct Hypostases ("persons").

That's classical Trinitarian theology. The use of the word "distinct" is accurate, what would be inaccurate is the use of the word "separate". Distinct simply refers to the uniqueness or haecceity ("thisness") of each Hypostasis (e.g. the Father's Father-ness). Separate would imply apart-ness. The Three aren't apart, but coinhere in each other and mutually participate in the one, undivided nature, what we refer to as the perichoresis of the Trinity.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[SanFrank]

God is three distinct Hypostases ("persons").

That's classical Trinitarian theology. The use of the word "distinct" is accurate, what would be inaccurate is the use of the word "separate". Distinct simply refers to the uniqueness or haecceity ("thisness") of each Hypostasis (e.g. the Father's Father-ness). Separate would imply apart-ness. The Three aren't apart, but coinhere in each other and mutually participate in the one, undivided nature, what we refer to as the perichoresis of the Trinity.

-CryptoLutheran

I meant distinct as in "separate" individuals. "Thinking of G*d as three (distinct/separate) persons is a dangerous game and a mockery."

 

[TG123]

Does it make sense to say God is the son of himself?

In case of the names, be they different or describing the same glory, at the end, "The Creator" is "The Merciful" is "The Graceful" etc.. so it's different.

Why is God a trinity then in Christianity, why don't they include the person "Graceful", the person "Merciful", the person "holy", etc, because "persons" it's not attributes. When Christianity doesn't consider attributes showing different persons, then obviously it's not the same as the trinity which is different persons. So it makes no sense to compare it with attributes.

For example stating God is King doesn't show a different person, then stating God is the Creator. They are denoting the same being.

Is father a description of the son? Is an attribute of the son? No... so you are comparing something completely different.

As to avenging denoting the same glory as the Mercy is, yeah, according to scholars of Islam, it is, every name of God is said to be complete beauty...so they all encompass each other.

The following is from Khomeini:

The Qur'an says: Call Allah or call Rahman (Surah al-Isra', 17:110). In another verse it says: Call Him by any name, for all the beautiful names are His. (Surah al-A'raf, 7:180) Allah, Rahman, Rahim and all other names of Him are good and beautiful. Each of them combines all His attributes. He being Absolute, there is no disparity between Him and His names or between one of His names and another. Allah's beautiful names are not like the names we give to different things for different considerations. His glory and His manifestation are not two different aspects of Him. His manifestation is exactly His glory and His glory exactly His manifestation. Even this expression is defective. Absolute existence means Absolute perfection and Absolute perfection must be absolute in every respect. Therefore, all His attributes are absolute. No disparity of any sort can be imagined between His essence and His attributes.

AsktheFamily,

You made some great points. I will be extremely busy this week so I will have to respond in a few days. Thanks for your patience.

 

[AskTheFamily]

AsktheFamily,

You made some great points. I will be extremely busy this week so I will have to respond in a few days. Thanks for your patience.

Take your time. Thanks for your time.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Do we believe in something because the ancients decided that all Christians should? End of story. Come on, do we play follow the leader or do we think? In reading the New Testament over and over again, I find that God expects us to think. I would rather be right with God then to worry of man, my peers, religious leaders, persecutions or my own fears & superstitions. You don't make less of Jesus to believe that he is God's obedient son, the Messiah and our King yet without the Trinity theology.

The great creed (Christendom's insurance policy) says you must include Trinity in your faith or else. My insurance policy has the blood of Jesus and my faith in him with the help of the Holy Spirit. Cowards are paralyzed by their superstitions & lack of insight. You need to decide for yourself and not go along with the flow. Trinity is not a little thing, but is instead a monstrous problem in the church. It confuses the very commands of Jesus Christ, since he must be Jehovah as well as himself and therefore we must obey Jehovah's commands (the Father's commands) of the Old Testament as well as decipher those through the teachings and direct commands of the New Testament. Something does not add up. I know the teachings of Jesus Christ and to follow them. How can anyone know the teachings and commands of the Old Testament and the Gospel and follow them together?

I asked God many questions over my life and received answers. I was several years back on a quest for months to decide if I believed in Trinity. Reading its history was paramount in seeing where it came from and what it was doing. I had a Mexican man ask me about Christianity and Trinity. I was on a mission trip in Mexico. I never gave Trinity any consideration at the time. When I was back home, I studied it day and night for months. What struck me hard was the lack of Christ-like conduct from Trinity founders and supporters towards other Christian believers (their brethren) who didn't believe. I don't think that there is much difference between the lost and ant-Christ like actions and attitudes from the leaders of Christendom's Trinity faith. There was and is a sickness in the established church of then and today.

At least, I found my answer about what I believe. My faith isn't hurt, but my insight into anti-Christ influence of the Church's leadership has made me on guard. I can not convince Christians' of this stumbling block, but it is ok. God has allowed much to exist, we must respect him and love & honor our brothers and sisters, as well as our neighbors for Christ. It is not about what you believe Trinity or not, but whom you obey or not. Let us obey Jesus and respect each other, even those who believe differently than ourselves.

Each person must be convinced in their own mind to what they believe in with Christ. Once they are convinced they must live accordingly to avoid sin and self condemnation. My decision is radically different than much of Christendom's. I believe in the initial faith and follow Christ. I am reading the New Testament once again and will pay attention to this concept of Trinity. I know that it lingers around certain passages. Do you know what the "Comma" is from Christian theological history? Why would anyone lie and think that is ok with Christ, since even Jesus Christ would want them to because Jesus meant for us to believe in Trinity?! We are to be holy and what in the world is that. The answer in the world is nothing! The world isn't holy and therefore holiness and the world are opposites. Yet Jesus wants us to be holy. So, we don't do "Commas" or execute our brethren or join in executioners beliefs.

The next mission trip inquiry about Trinity has an answer from me, "Don't go there, stay with your faith in Jesus alone, obey him and follow him alone!"

How powerful is love and what is holy love as our Father has for his son and son for his Father? I hope that all will find out by obeying and following God's son to reach their own Father in Heaven?

Why would God allow the Christian Church to divide and separate and get contaminated? The master plan is his, we just have our Lord Jesus and to follow him. I only love God and his son more that I know them as they are. Jesus asked if he would find faith on the earth when he came back. As it seems, there is a huge lack of it that people rely not own their courage and insight, but their being told what to believe and how to believe.

I teach my 5 year old son many things about Jesus and try to guide him on the most wonderful journey that he could have. I would be pleased if he would go into the missions when he got older. I love him as he is and accept whatever pathway he would choose, as long that he believed, obeyed and followed Jesus Christ.

Have a great day.

 

[razeontherock]

What Stephen writes here is "baggage." I don't mean to belittle it's significance; I have my own baggage within Christianity, and CF is helping me heal from that. The problem is that because the Church has a horribly dark period when they were killing each other for just about everything imaginable, Stephen has decided the doctrine of Trinity can't be true.

That makes no sense.

Did Christians kill, torture and maim Christians over Trinity? Probably so. Does this one point of doctrine in any way stand out as being more prevalent than the same type of behavior re: other things branded as heresy?

No!

What struck me hard was the lack of Christ-like conduct from Trinity founders and supporters towards other Christian believers (their brethren) who didn't believe. I don't think that there is much difference between the lost and ant-Christ like actions and attitudes from the leaders of Christendom's Trinity faith.

I defy you to differentiate this from other similar acts perpetrated by the Church, for reasons other than Trinity. And I probably have swept too much blame for this upon Constantine and his influence. Perhaps the man sincerely sought truth, and thought it reasonable to conclude one version. What came of this was "thought police," that imposed upon the natural development of individual's Faith that had grown without such hindrance even during the height of martyrdom. Of course that was a real problem, but why conflate that with the doctrine of Trinity?

If you want to get into "anti Christ like actions," you're already referring to what was perpetrated by the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) so why not continue the examination right through the dark ages up to Napolean, when RC finally lost it's power? There is a great bulk of evidence that Revelation's Prophecies of doom and gloom were in large part fulfilled in this way that you object to, and thankfully, if the RCC was ever indeed the harlot of Babylon, it is no longer.

Trinity is not a little thing, but is instead a monstrous problem in the church. It confuses the very commands of Jesus Christ, since he must be Jehovah as well as himself

LOLwut? You ever hear of this thing called the Great Commission? There's yer Trinity right there, out of the mouth of the Lord Himself. Are you not here proven guilty of the very thing you accuse another of doing? Funny how quickly that works, eh?

How can anyone know the teachings and commands of the Old Testament and the Gospel and follow them together?

Trinity in no way teaches Law. I know what you're saying here, but the fact is, Trinity in no way teaches Law.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

LOLwut? You ever hear of this thing called the Great Commission? There's yer Trinity right there, out of the mouth of the Lord Himself. Are you not here proven guilty of the very thing you accuse another of doing? Funny how quickly that works, eh?



Trinity in no way teaches Law. I know what you're saying here, but the fact is, Trinity in no way teaches Law.

Why does one church call the Sabbath a must keep law according to the command of Jesus Christ (since he is Jehovah)? This is true if you conclude that Jesus is Jehovah through Trinity and therefore Jesus commanded keeping the Sabbath (Saturday). Trinity confuses and divides the churches since there is confusion of the commands of Christ. You don't understand what I am saying? I surely have baggage as you and many do, but certainly you must be able to see why churches are having problems uniting because of what Trinity implies of Jesus' commands. I don't believe in Trinity, so I could never see things as Seventh Day Adventist do or others. This is only one example of many that comes along with the baggage of Trinity in Jesus' Church. When I see Jesus, I will see God our Father, but I will never see Trinity, but only a very close son & Father. Why is it wrong to accept that we don't know all things now and should not claim things that we don't understand or really know? What is wrong with being honest? When Jesus tells or shows us all things or the ones we ask, we will then know more than the theologies guess works or logic ramblings.

If you or any believe in Trinity, you should easily understand and follow a church like Seventh Day Adventist. For surely, God the Father who is God the son gave every Christian the commands of the OT in addition to the NT. If Trinity were removed and abolished then divisions may start to erode with Christendom. If we were then to obey Jesus, we would get his commands directly from the NT. Apostle Paul isn't Jesus, so I listen to Jesus to obey and Paul for good advise. This also narrows down where the commands are coming from. The same is true for Apostle Peter, etc all the way to the church. We must be subject directly to Christ and all else is good advise to help us.

I am sorry for my lack of clarity. I didn't mean to be hostile or carry my baggage around to burden others. I was trying to show a simple logic of why the Trinity theology just isn't necessary and is a hardship for Christians.

I hope that you understand the reasons why I brought this all up. I would love to see no confusion in the churches and that Christians would all be one with Christ-centered lives. I try to get all people to focus only on the King of Kings, our Lord and not anything else.

Tired and sleepy, Have a wonderful day. Just try to think about things in the way of why so much disunity and confusions around the Christian faith? We can unite back with Jesus alone. It is possible. In a hard time of persecution, we will be left with the memories & hope of Christ, I pray, and forget these continual messes.

 

[razeontherock]

Why does one church call the Sabbath a must keep law according to the command of Jesus Christ (since he is Jehovah)? This is true if you conclude that Jesus is Jehovah through Trinity and therefore Jesus commanded keeping the Sabbath (Saturday). Trinity confuses and divides the churches since there is confusion of the commands of Christ. You don't understand what I am saying? I surely have baggage as you and many do, but certainly you must be able to see why churches are having problems uniting because of what Trinity implies of Jesus' commands. I don't believe in Trinity, so I could never see things as Seventh Day Adventist do or others. This is only one example of many that comes along with the baggage of Trinity in Jesus' Church.

This is not a division due to Trinity, or else all Trinitarians would also be Sabbatarians. Ipso facto. Thus, we know there is more involved.

When I see Jesus, I will see God our Father, but I will never see Trinity, but only a very close son & Father. Why is it wrong to accept that we don't know all things now and should not claim things that we don't understand or really know?

Nothing wrong with that, but why do you not "see" the Holy Spirit? I mean it's not necessary to comprehend those attributes of God as distinct from either Father or Son, but Scripture certainly does teach it that way. Fortunately for us, Salvation is NOT dependent upon our own understanding!

This also narrows down where the commands are coming from. The same is true for Apostle Peter, etc all the way to the church. We must be subject directly to Christ and all else is good advise to help us.

Hmmm:

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (Ephesians 2:20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

Seems like the Apostles are more than just "good advice." Then we see more about this habitation of God we are built into through the Spirit, in Rev., but i won't trouble you with that just now either. I agree with you Trinity is not necessary for Salvation, but i think you are skipping over some very beneficial things in the process. God does want us to know Him! He Loves us, and enjoys our company

 

[razeontherock]

Mr OP:

I just learned of a book written on this very subject, circa 300 AD. Link:

CHURCH FATHERS: On "Not Three Gods" (Gregory of Nyssa)

I suspect it would help you more than any of us can! (It's not that long)

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Mr OP:

I just learned of a book written on this very subject, circa 300 AD. Link:

CHURCH FATHERS: On "Not Three Gods" (Gregory of Nyssa)

I suspect it would help you more than any of us can! (It's not that long)

The Cappadocian Fathers (St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Basil the Great and St. Gregory Nazianzus) were perhaps the most important theologians of the 4th century (along with St. Athanasius and St. Ambrose). More than any other theologian(s) of that time period the Cappadocians (they all grew up together, Gregory of Nyssa was the younger brother of Basil, and both were long time friends of Gregory Nazianzus) were influential in codifying and articulating Trinitarian theology and language.

I would most definitely recommend the writings of the Fathers here, going to the horse's mouth so to speak of Trinitarian theology is far more prudent than simply listening to anything any of us here could say about it.

In other words, very good recommendation and suggestion.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[bling]

Alternative to what? How is a trinity more likely than a unity?

What does it mean to believe in something you can't understand? Is it like believing in a square-circle?

It is impossible to believe in a square circle.

Do you believe in gravity? Do you understand it?

Do you believe in infinity and can you explain it?

I believe Deity would be around long enough to do anything He wanted or needed to do.

From my understanding of “Godly type Love” it requires someone to Love, so there would be multiple beings to some extent from the beginning, but what does that mean?

The “trinity” explains what the Bible teaches as the relationship between God the Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit, while all other explanations have big problems. I just do not understand what the trinity really is like and may never be able to understand it or gravity or infinity.

 

[bling]

{Say: ‘He is God, One.
God, the Self-Sufficient, Besought of all.
He neither begot, nor was begotten.
Nor is there anyone equal to Him’.}[112:1-4] Chapter:The Unity
Is it hard to understand or explain this chapter?!
Do you need a teacher?!

Yes, God is Omnipotent but there is a difference between what God CAN DO and what God WILL DO!

If God came down to Earth just to convey his message to Christians then what was the job of Abraham, Moses and other Prophets?!

The Quran does not agree with the Bible or teach the unique relationship between God and Christ.

Christ is coming not to present a written or verbal message, but to give us a living example of Godly type Love (showing us what God is really like in a way we can understand it). Christ also will establish the method for spreading the good news (Gospel) which is not through a book. And third Christ is providing the ultimate sacrifice for us to truly know the Love of God and provide a way for God to be totally just without destroying all of us.

All the prophets before Christ were preparing the way for Christ. The “prophets” after Christ were God’s messengers telling and showing Christ.