Trinity -sophistry?

[AskTheFamily]

I honestly tried to understand the trinity from a Christian perspective but I've come to conclude it's a sort of sophistry.

First of All, when we ask what is God...we get different answers.

1) God is a trinity, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit
2) Father is God and Jesus is son of God
3) Jesus is God

We hear each of these but they can;'t all be true.

Jesus is not a trinity, so it can't be God is a trinity and Jesus is God. Jesus is not the son of himself, so he can't be God and the son of God at the same time.

The father can't be God either when he is one of the trinity, and Jesus can't be the son of the trinity when he is part of the trinity.

Also when we think of the father, he is the creator, the one whom decides, jesus fulfills the will of the father, but what is the holy spirit?

The holy spirit is suppose to something inside people that guides them, it's not a diety...it doesn't have all knowing knowledge or is the creator or cause, it rather is a effect in itself, that is suppose to be within creation.

How this even part of the God-hood is beyond me.

What makes it worse is when each is claimed to be each other, the Son and the Father are one, what does it even mean...does it mean they are the exact same entity, then why the separation?

It feels like nothing but sophistry to worship One God and Worship Jesus as son of God at the same time and all the rest is just sophistry to make it as if that's possible and is what Christians do.

I really don't see how Christians don't Worship Jesus and Father both, making two Gods, and the holy spirit is really not Worshipped but just an added ingredient to the whole thing...but if it we say it's worshipped too, then that would make three Gods.

 

[bling]

I believe in it but I do not understand it.

 

[Sister of Faith]

I believe in it but I do not understand it.

What does "believe" mean?!!
Your brain is rejecting it but you are unaware.
To believe in something it means that you are able to defend it strongly.
How can you defend something which you don't understand?!!!!
Sorry, but I think you have used the wrong expression.

 

[durangodawood]

From the outside looking in:
.
Why expect the divine order to be entirely sensible to our limited mortal minds? To reject the trinity as not-sensible is to impose our own severely limited nature onto the entirety of divine possibility. Thats not justified.
.

 

[Delphiki]

I've heard it explained that it's a hierarchy. They are all 3 God, comprised of the son, holy spirit/ghost, and the father.

The part I don't get is... wouldn't God now only consist of 2 aspects since the son was crucified?

 

[elopez]

I honestly tried to understand the trinity from a Christian perspective but I've come to conclude it's a sort of sophistry.

Actually understanding the Trinity from a Christian perspective I conclude only the opposite. I see no invalid reasoning included in the doctrine of the Trinity.

First of All, when we ask what is God...we get different answers.

1) God is a trinity, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit
2) Father is God and Jesus is son of God
3) Jesus is God

According to the Holy Trinity there is one God existent in three persons. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Each person is the same one God yet each person is not the same person. What is meant by that is while Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God, Jesus is not the Holy Spirit and the Spirit not Jesus. So when we claim 1, 2, and 3, they are not different answer at all.

We hear each of these but they can;'t all be true.

We'll see.

Jesus is not a trinity, so it can't be God is a trinity and Jesus is God. Jesus is not the son of himself, so he can't be God and the son of God at the same time.

Jesus is the Son himself as he identified God as his father. 'Son of God' refers only to the special relationship that Jesus shares with God the Father that differentiates from our relationship with the Father as 'children' or 'sons of God.' This again only notes the difference between the persons of the Trinity -- the Father is not the Son just as the Son is not the Holy Spirit. Jesus was both divine and human. His divinity encompasses the one eternal God, his corporeality the Son of God.

The father can't be God either when he is one of the trinity, and Jesus can't be the son of the trinity when he is part of the trinity.

I can't really make sense of this so far. Care to elaborate or at least clarify?

Also when we think of the father, he is the creator, the one whom decides, jesus fulfills the will of the father, but what is the holy spirit?

The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity just as much God as the Son is.

The holy spirit is suppose to something inside people that guides them, it's not a diety...it doesn't have all knowing knowledge or is the creator or cause, it rather is a effect in itself, that is suppose to be within creation.

If you're basing your conclusion that the Holy Spirit is not Deity on the basis of a sort of absence of omniscience I would highly disagree. 1 Corinthians 2:10-11 says, "But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."

How this even part of the God-hood is beyond me.

What makes it worse is when each is claimed to be each other, the Son and the Father are one, what does it even mean...does it mean they are the exact same entity, then why the separation?

Again the persons are not each other. The Father is not the Son is not the Holy Spirit. They are all one in the sense that each is the same one God. Each person is equal in essence or nature. The difference is only in their roles as the Father creates and was not incarnated, crucified, etc. Same Deity, different persons.

It feels like nothing but sophistry to worship One God and Worship Jesus as son of God at the same time and all the rest is just sophistry to make it as if that's possible and is what Christians do.

If Jesus is God and God alone is deserving of worship, I see no sophistry at all in worshiping Christ as God, not the Son of God.

I really don't see how Christians don't Worship Jesus and Father both, making two Gods, and the holy spirit is really not Worshipped but just an added ingredient to the whole thing...but if it we say it's worshipped too, then that would make three Gods.

The Son and the Father are the same God as they each share the same essence and substance. Two different persons, not Gods.

 

[bling]

What does "believe" mean?!!
Your brain is rejecting it but you are unaware.
To believe in something it means that you are able to defend it strongly.
How can you defend something which you don't understand?!!!!
Sorry, but I think you have used the wrong expression.

I consider it to be the most likely alternative at this time, since it is hard to explain the relationship between God the father, Christ and the Holy Spirit any other way and be consistent.

I also believe God can do and/or be anything that is possible to do and/ or be that would not be a sin.

God coming to earth also sounds very reasonable/logical if God was trying to convey to man something very special (God Loves us that much).

 

[Tinker Grey]

I consider it to be the most likely alternative at this time, since it is hard to explain the relationship between God the father, Christ and the Holy Spirit any other way and be consistent.

I also believe God can do and/or be anything that is possible to do and/ or be that would not be a sin.

God coming to earth also sounds very reasonable/logical if God was trying to convey to man something very special (God Loves us that much).

Alternative to what? How is a trinity more likely than a unity?

What does it mean to believe in something you can't understand? Is it like believing in a square-circle?

 

[Sister of Faith]

I consider it to be the most likely alternative at this time, since it is hard to explain the relationship between God the father, Christ and the Holy Spirit any other way and be consistent.

I also believe God can do and/or be anything that is possible to do and/ or be that would not be a sin.

God coming to earth also sounds very reasonable/logical if God was trying to convey to man something very special (God Loves us that much).

{Say: ‘He is God, One.
God, the Self-Sufficient, Besought of all.
He neither begot, nor was begotten.
Nor is there anyone equal to Him’.} [112:1-4] Chapter:The Unity
Is it hard to understand or explain this chapter?!
Do you need a teacher?!

Yes, God is Omnipotent but there is a difference between what God CAN DO and what God WILL DO!

If God came down to Earth just to convey his message to Christians then what was the job of Abraham, Moses and other Prophets?!

 

[SanFrank]

There have been threads describing G*d as existing outside our dimension, outside of our space and time, all points were agreable amongst the posters. All posters need to accept this outside dimension as a scientific description of "spirituality." Thus the saying "G*d is spirit."

Discussing the spiritual is like discussing the outside dimension. We cannot because we have not been there yet. The concept of "trinity" is meant for the spiritual and not for someone just coming to know Christianity and the Bible.

Suffice for you that I do understand the concept of trinity but even this is not important. The concept of trinity is not the crux to being christian.

 

[SanFrank]

{Say: ‘He is God, One.
God, the Self-Sufficient, Besought of all.
He neither begot, nor was begotten.
Nor is there anyone equal to Him’.}[112:1-4] Chapter:The Unity
Is it hard to understand or explain this chapter?!
Do you need a teacher?!

Yes, God is Omnipotent but there is a difference between what God CAN DO and what God WILL DO!

If God came down to Earth just to convey his message to Christians then what was the job of Abraham, Moses and other Prophets?!

Is it just me or do you always seem to be shouting?

Have you read ibn ishaq's sirat? How is it I am studying this text, hadith, qur'an and other references on islam but look, I am still a christian? How is it I know just as much as you OR MORE THAN YOU, but look, I am still a christian? Did I deny god (since you think it is the same god) or did I notice that islam is not a confirmation of what came before?

Have you read the Bible? You have not but you still make uninformed comments.
.

 

[SanFrank]

I consider it to be the most likely alternative at this time, since it is hard to explain the relationship between God the father, Christ and the Holy Spirit any other way and be consistent.

I also believe God can do and/or be anything that is possible to do and/ or be that would not be a sin.

God coming to earth also sounds very reasonable/logical if God was trying to convey to man something very special (God Loves us that much).

 

[ElijahW]

Also when we think of the father, he is the creator, the one whom decides, jesus fulfills the will of the father, but what is the holy spirit?

It’s platonic idealism. To compare it to a computer or more accurately what you are looking at on the screen right now. What you are seeing is a particular physical manifestation of a program. That program may be stored physically in the hard drive, just like our programming is stored in the brain but the actual code isn’t physical but is considered spiritual, since the coding or ideas aren’t affected by time or space. This coding or ideas can be transformed to form any particular or instance we can imagine. But this complex spiritual program is actually created by binary code of ones and zeros, which only has one function, to turn on or off a switch. This is comparable to God who only has one function, which is to create. This one function though can lead to a complex patterns of coding that can be transformed into physical particulars on a computer.

It’s not a perfect analogy and may not be an accurate way to describe how computers work but that was the thinking back then in regards to the world. Platonic duality not only has a divide between matter and spirit but also has a divide between in the spiritual side, between creator God and the holy spirit that was the cause of the complexity/order. God at the time of Jesus is unknowable by itself and only know through the holy spirit, which as you say we have access to with our intellect.

 

[Sister of Faith]

Is it just me or do you always seem to be shouting?

Have you read ibn ishaq's sirat? How is it I am studying this text, hadith, qur'an and other references on islam but look, I am still a christian? How is it I know just as much as you OR MORE THAN YOU, but look, I am still a christian? Did I deny god (since you think it is the same god) or did I notice that islam is not a confirmation of what came before?

Have you read the Bible? You have not but you still make uninformed comments.
.

Shouting!!!
Ibn Ishaq....not really but I'm studying sira and for your information, there are many things in ishaq's sira which are not authentic.
To be honest with you, I didn't understand what are you trying to say.
What is the relationship between my post and what you are saying??
Are you trying to tell me that you have studied about Islam from a long time and till now you are not convinced with it and you are still Christian??? because I believe that I know what is your problem.

 

[razeontherock]

There have been threads describing G*d as existing outside our dimension, outside of our space and time, all points were agreable amongst the posters. All posters need to accept this outside dimension as a scientific description of "spirituality." Thus the saying "G*d is spirit."

Discussing the spiritual is like discussing the outside dimension. We cannot because we have not been there yet. The concept of "trinity" is meant for the spiritual and not for someone just coming to know Christianity and the Bible.

Suffice for you that I do understand the concept of trinity but even this is not important. The concept of trinity is not the crux to being christian.

This is all true, but ATF is a smart guy, and (apparently) wondering how Christianity can have any merit if such a basic tenet is incomprehensible. I think it's a legitimate question, and easily has enough merit to survive in EC. Apparently he doesn't want to limit the discussion to Christians only, so he put it here.

While I strongly suspect Crypto Lutheran could furnish more historic details, Trinity was largely codified to counter specific heresies claiming Jesus was either only God or only man. I really don't see what would be wrong with teaching hypostatic union (even w/o the fancy name) before Trinity, but I wouldn't want to see Trinity abandoned altogether; it is an expression of some Divine revelation.

Much like Christ being the Son of God, if you do not personally experience this Divine revelation there isn't a whole lot someone else can say to convince you. And with this revelation, there will still be times when it doesn't register within the intellect. Thank God we're not saved by our own understanding!

So back to the OP, Jesus is man, Christ is eternal God, but not the same as "the Father." We are talking about an infinite Being here, so there's plenty of room for each Person of the Trinity to be not only incomprehensibly enormous but infinite, without overlapping the other 2 Persons of the Trinity.

It's also possible to worship God who is One, and leave it at that (That does leave some unanswered questions about Incarnation and especially Crucifixion though)

 

[TG123]

AskTheFamily, thanks for your very good questions. May God bless you as you continue to seek the truth.

I honestly tried to understand the trinity from a Christian perspective but I've come to conclude it's a sort of sophistry.

Thank you for being so honest. I will try to address your points.

First of All, when we ask what is God...we get different answers.

1) God is a trinity, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit
2) Father is God and Jesus is son of God
3) Jesus is God

We hear each of these but they can;'t all be true.

They are. God is a trinity, He exists as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Jesus being the Son of the Father shows the relationship God the Father has with God the Son in the Trinity. Jesus is God, as is the Father and the Holy Spirit. God reveals Himself to us as three persons- the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Jesus is not a trinity, so it can't be God is a trinity and Jesus is God. Jesus is not the son of himself, so he can't be God and the son of God at the same time.

Jesus is not a trinity, but the Father and the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit is. He is the Son of the Father, who like Jesus also is God. So Jesus is both God and the Son of God.

The father can't be God either when he is one of the trinity, and Jesus can't be the son of the trinity when he is part of the trinity.

Jesus is the Son of the Father not the trinity. Son of God refers to Son of God the Father. Jesus calls God "the Father". He also says that He and the Father are one, and those who have seen Him have seen the Father. Thomas fell down and worshipped Him, saying "my Lord and my God". The Bible makes it very clear Jesus is God just as the Father is.

Also when we think of the father, he is the creator, the one whom decides, jesus fulfills the will of the father, but what is the holy spirit?

The holy spirit is suppose to something inside people that guides them, it's not a diety...it doesn't have all knowing knowledge or is the creator or cause, it rather is a effect in itself, that is suppose to be within creation.

How this even part of the God-hood is beyond me.

The Holy Spirit is sent down by Jesus to people who know and follow Him. He convicts us of sin and abides in us. The Holy Spirit is God and the fact He is in the hearts of believers shows how awesome God is... not only He came down in the form of Christ but is in us today!

Jesus said to baptize in the name (not names) of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one.

What makes it worse is when each is claimed to be each other, the Son and the Father are one, what does it even mean...does it mean they are the exact same entity, then why the separation?

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are the three persons God reveals Himself as to us. Why the 'separation'? God chose to reveal Himself this way to us. Why? InshAllah.

It feels like nothing but sophistry to worship One God and Worship Jesus as son of God at the same time and all the rest is just sophistry to make it as if that's possible and is what Christians do.

I really don't see how Christians don't Worship Jesus and Father both, making two Gods, and the holy spirit is really not Worshipped but just an added ingredient to the whole thing...but if it we say it's worshipped too, then that would make three Gods.

If Christians believed that there are three gods and that that the Father is a god and the Son is a god and the Holy Spirit is a god, that would be correct. But we believe there is one God, who chooses to reveal Himself as three persons.

I wanted to thank you for asking the questions you've asked and would be glad to respond to your responses. Thank you for your willingness to seek the truth and for your respect for the other posters. There are some Christians and Muslim on and off this forum who have a lot to learn about that.

 

[AskTheFamily]

Thanks TG for the response. Most of what you wrote doesn't seem to be a rebuttal but just affirming the christian beliefs of those three statements I brought in the beginning.

If Christians believed that there are three gods and that that the Father is a god and the Son is a god and the Holy Spirit is a god, that would be correct.

That is implied when you say "Jesus is God", it means he is a God. So it is said.

If God is a trinity, then each person of the trinity, is not the trinity itself. Therefore not God.

Jesus is not the son of himself, so he can't be God and son of God at the same time.

To me it breaks the rule of identity.

Either God is defined as a trinity, and each person is not God, but just part of God or God is himself and son of God would denote two separate beings..but being son of God denotes he is not God himself..because he can;'t be son of himself...

It really to me is sophistry.

I don't see how you can say God is a trinity, but Jesus is not a trinity, yet Jesus is God which is supposed to be a trinity.

It's not that I can't make sense of it, I can understand it's a contradiction and goes against the rule of identity.

It's illogical, not simply not comprehensible.


If God was revealing himself in three persons, then each person is not God himself. If God is three parts, then none of the parts are God himself, they are just that a part.

If he is three persons, then each person is not God, but 1/3 of God. You can't define God as a trinity, and then define him as 1/3 of that trinity as well.


To me it's like the following is being claimed:

1 + 1 + 1 = 1

1/3 = 1

It simply doesn't make sense.

 

[razeontherock]

Your style of logic here simply defies the edict that "G-d is One." That is a rather big element in all of the Abrahamic Faiths. That Oneness is before, and primary to, any understanding of Trinity, which merely has potential to reveal Himself to us a bit more.

I do agree with what you say though, that Jesus is not His own son.

Also recognize the story of the blind men and the elephant; we do not possess all knowledge of all mysteries, nor is that the claim, or even the point. So in this respect an element of sophistry may come into play? anyway there is a good diagram useful for discussions like this, maybe someone can post it?

 

[TG123]

Thanks TG for the response. Most of what you wrote doesn't seem to be a rebuttal but just affirming the christian beliefs of those three statements I brought in the beginning.

Thanks for your response, let's continue.

That is implied when you say "Jesus is God", it means he is a God. So it is said.

No, Jesus is not a God. Jesus is God. Like the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

In the Quran, God has over 99 names. To list just three, al-raheem, al-rahman, Allah. Is Allah a God and al-rahman a God and al-raheem a God, or are these three of the 99+ names for God? Does each name denote a different God? Of course not. All 99+ names are names of the same God.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three persons of the same God.

If God is a trinity, then each person of the trinity, is not the trinity itself. Therefore not God.

No, each person is not the full picture of God that He reveals to us. I will make an Islamic comparison.

In Islam, one of the many names for God is merciful. Does this describe God always? Will God be merciful when in Islam He throws non-Muslims to burn in hell for eternity?

Does this mean that al-raheem is not God, since God is not always merciful?

Jesus is not the son of himself, so he can't be God and son of God at the same time.

No, He is the Son of the Father. Like Jesus and the Holy Spirit, the Father is God. Jesus (God) is the Son of the Father (God). He is both God and the Son of God.

To me it breaks the rule of identity.

Either God is defined as a trinity, and each person is not God, but just part of God or God is himself and son of God would denote two separate beings..but being son of God denotes he is not God himself..because he can;'t be son of himself...

Each person in the Trinity is one the three persons God reveals Himself as to mankind. Each person in the trinity is God, all three are God.

It really to me is sophistry.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It really isn't though, once you understand who God is.

I don't see how you can say God is a trinity, but Jesus is not a trinity, yet Jesus is God which is supposed to be a trinity.

God exists as three persons in the Trinity. Jesus is one of the persons. All three are one God.

It's not that I can't make sense of it, I can understand it's a contradiction and goes against the rule of identity.

It's illogical, not simply not comprehensible.

It makes sense to me, and to many millions of Christians around the world.

If God was revealing himself in three persons, then each person is not God himself. If God is three parts, then none of the parts are God himself, they are just that a part.

If he is three persons, then each person is not God, but 1/3 of God.

Each person is fully God in union with the other 2 persons in the Trinity. God is not in three parts, God is one. He reveals Himself to us in three persons.

I will paste a brief explanation provided by the Catholic Encyclopedia, which I think explains this better than I have been doing thus far.

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.
Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Trinity

Here is a definition from CARM, a protestant site.

God is a trinity of persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father. They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are all the one God. Each has a will, can speak, can love, etc., and these are demonstrations of personhood. They are in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance. They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God. (See also, "Another Look at the Trinity")
The Trinity | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

 

[razeontherock]

To me it's like the following is being claimed:

1 + 1 + 1 = 1

1/3 = 1

It simply doesn't make sense.

There is no division within God! Neither can anything be added; however, 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.