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trinity question

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2ducklow

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EchoPneuma said:
Then what do you do with this scripture that TOTALLY CONTRADICTS your scripture?

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Do you deny that this is talking about Jesus?

Contradictions only result from wrong theology. the bible has no contradictions.
It says 'his name shall be called , 'the mighty God.' Not he is the mighty God. thus no contradiction of scripture. Jesus name is called the mighty God because God the Father gave Jesus the same name as his.

Isa 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty ωGod, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace. darby

Joh 17:11And I am no longer in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one as we. darby
 
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EchoPneuma

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2ducklow said:
Contradictions only result from wrong theology. the bible has no contradictions.
It says 'his name shall be called , 'the mighty God.' Not he is the mighty God. thus no contradiction of scripture. Jesus name is called the mighty God because God the Father gave Jesus the same name as his.

Isa 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty ωGod, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace. darby

Joh 17:11And I am no longer in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one as we. darby

The word "name" in Isa 9:6 is "Shem" in Hebrew and means Honor, authority, character or position. It doesn't mean what He is called but rather his POSITION, CHARACTER and AUTHORITY.

So Jesus POSITION is EVERLASTING FATHER and His AUTHORITY is MIGHTY GOD and His CHARACTER is WONDERFUL COUNSELOR AND PRINCE OF PEACE. That word "shem" means much more than just a name.

Jesus is God incarnated into flesh.
 
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Cleany

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hybrid said:
i know what you mean, sorry if i used your post to express the underlined piece. i'm happy also that you liked it.
:)


hybrid said:
what about the phrase " God in the flesh", is that palatable to you?
yep. immanuel - god with us isnt it?


hybrid said:
yap, it's quite problematic enough to begin with as to how god was to go about entering creation to save us and convinced that he loves us without totally consuming it with his glorius presence.
no offence but i really dont like this. you talk as if it is a science experiment with god and creation being items in a test tube. the words "god", "entering" (in context), and "creation", if not others here, really need to be defined properly to ambark on any kind of analytical thinking.


hybrid said:
i would have settled for the phrase "son of god" to characterize Jesus, but as you see lots of people gave all sorts of meaning to the phrase SOG. the son of god were reduced to mean angels, glorified or deified man, demi-god, etc. which was actually the point of my post to you.

that is why i like the phrase "god from god". it captures the thought of Jesus as truly the only begotten son of god.
well im with you, sort of. yet i cant help that talk about jesus being "begotten" is more like preaching than describing reality. its like the definition has to say that jesus wasnt "only a man" first and foremost, it isnt honest thinking using the evidence, it is a lesson wrapped up in an analogy, and i dont like it.

i know this perhaps isnt what you are saying, but i cant get away from the fact that every definition of the trinity i have ever heard comes along with "we must say that" or "we cant say this". if i want a sermon on what jesus must and mustnt be then i will listen to one, i really dont like stealth sermons wrapped up in doctrine.


hybrid said:
as the son was from his father, Jesus was from god. jesus acknowleges that his deity was from the one true god. in that sense since the father was the source of his deity, the father is greater than he.

on the other hand, jesus was said to be equal to the father, because by virtue of his sonship he possessed the essential qualities of being god. IOW, they are not twins, peers nor clones.



god is the only Lord I acknowledge.

that is definitive enough for me.
well yes it is a difficult subject, i think that we both believe the same thing about jesus to be honest.

i hope you can see what i am trying to say. i want definitions to be definitions based on the evidence, and not what people want other people to think.

:)
 
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Der Alte

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2ducklow said:
[size=-1]Contradictions only result from wrong theology. the bible has no contradictions.

It says 'his name shall be called , 'the mighty God.' Not he is the mighty God. thus no contradiction of scripture. Jesus name is called the mighty God because God the Father gave Jesus the same name as his.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty ωGod, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace. Darby[/size]

You finally said something I agree with but you are the one with the wrong Theology and here are two more misinterpretations of scripture trying to back up your bad theology.
Keil-Delitszch Hebrew commentary of the O.T. -Isa 9:6 –

Upon the two sentences with ci the prophet now builds a third. The reason for the triumph is the deliverance effected; and the reason for the deliverance, the destruction of the foe; and the reason for all the joy, all the freedom, all the peace, is the new great King. - “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government rests upon His shoulder: and they call His name, Wonder, Counsellor, mighty God, Eternal-Father, Prince of Peace.” The same person whom the prophet foretold in chapter 7 as the son of the virgin who would come to maturity in troublous times, he here sees as born, and as having already taken possession of the government. There he appeared as a sign, here as a gift of grace. The prophet does not expressly say that he is a son of David in this instance any more than in chapter 7 (for the remark that has been recently made, that yeled is used here for “infant-prince,” is absurd); but this followed as a matter of course, from the fact that he was to bear the government, with all its official rights (Isa_22:22) and godlike majesty (Psa_21:6), upon his shoulder; for the inviolable promise of eternal sovereignty, of which the new-born infant was to be the glorious fulfilment, had been bound up with the seed of David in the course of Israel's history ever since the declaration in 2 Sam 7. In chapter 7 it is the mother who names the child; here it is the people, or indeed any one who rejoices in him: ויּקרא, “one calls, they call, he is called,” as Luther has correctly rendered it, though under the mistaken idea that the Jews had altered the original ויּקּרא into ויּקרא, for the purpose of eliminating the Messianic sense of the passage. But the active verb itself has really been twisted by Jewish commentators in this way; so that Rashi, Kimchi, Malbim, and others follow the Targum, and explain the passage as meaning, “the God, who is called and is Wonder,' Counsellor, the mighty God, the eternal Father, calls his name the Prince of Peace;” but this rendering evidently tears asunder things that are closely connected. And Luzzatto has justly observed, that you do not expect to find attributes of God here, but such as would be characteristic of the child. He therefore renders the passage, “God the mighty, the eternal Father, the Prince of Peace, resolves upon wonderful things,” and persuades himself that this long clause is meant for the proper name of the child, just as in other cases declaratory clauses are made into proper names, e.g., the names of the prophet's two sons. But even granting that such a sesquipedalian name were possible, in what an unskilful manner would the name be formed, since the long-winded clause, which would necessarily have to be uttered in one breath, would resolve itself again into separate clauses, which are not only names themselves, but, contrary to all expectation, names of God! The motive which prompted Luzzatto to adopt this original interpretation is worthy of notice. He had formerly endeavoured, like other commentators, to explain the passage by taking the words from “Wonderful” to “Prince of Peace” as the name of the child; and in doing this he rendered יועץ פלא “one counselling wonderful things,” thus inverting the object, and regarded “mighty God” as well as “eternal Father” as hyperbolical expressions, like the words applied to the King in Psa_45:7. But now he cannot help regarding it as absolutely impossible for a human child to be called el gibbor, like God Himself in Isa_10:21. So far as the relation between his novel attempt at exposition and the accentuation is concerned, it certainly does violence to this, though not to such an extent as the other specimen of exegetical leger-demain, which makes the clause from פלא to אבי־עד the subject to ויקרא. Nevertheless, in the face of the existing accentuation, we must admit that the latter is, comparatively speaking, the better of the two; for if שמו ויקרא were intended to be the introduction to the list of names which follows, שׁמו would not be pointed with geresh, but with zakeph. The accentuators seem also to have shrunk from taking el gibbor as the name of a man. They insert intermediate points, as though “eternal Father, Prince of Peace,” were the name of the child, and all that precedes, from “Wonder” onwards, the name of God, who would call him by these two honourable names. But, at the very outset, it is improbable that there should be two names instead of one or more; and it is impossible to conceive for what precise reason such a periphrastic description of God should be employed in connection with the naming of this child, as is not only altogether different from Isaiah's usual custom, but altogether unparalleled in itself, especially without the definite article. The names of God should at least have been defined thus, הגּבּור פּלא היּועץ, so as to distinguish them from the two names of the child.

Even assuming, therefore, that the accentuation is meant to convey this sense, “And the wonderful Counsellor, the mighty God, calls his name Eternal-Father, Prince of Peace,” as appears to be the case; we must necessarily reject it, as resting upon a misunderstanding and misinterpretation.

(Note: The telisha in פלא is the smallest of all disjunctive accents; the geresh in שׁמו separates rather more strongly than this; the pashta in יועץ separates somewhat more than the other two, but less than the zakeph in גבור; and this zakeph is the greatest divider in the sentence. The whole sentence, therefore, distributes itself in the following manner: אבי־עד גבור אל יועץ פלא שׁמו ויקרא שׂר־שלום . All the words from ויקרא onwards are subordinate to the zakeph attached to גבור, which is, to all appearance, intended to have the force of an introductory colon: as, for example, in 2Sa_18:5 (in the case of לאמר in the clause לאמר ואת־אתי ואת־אבישי יואב). In smaller subdivisions, again, פלא (telisha) is connected with יועץ (pashta), and both together with גבור אל (munach zakeph). If only sar shalom (Prince of Peace) were intended as the name of the child, it would necessarily be accentuated in the following manner: שמו ויקרא kadma geresh, יועץ פלא teilsha gershayim, גבור אל mercha tebir, עד אבי tifchah, שׂר־שׁלום silluk; and the principal disjunctive would stand at עד instead of גבור. But if the name of the child were intended to form a declaratory clause, commencing with יועץ פלא, “determines wonderful things,” as Luzzatto assumes, we should expect to find a stronger disjunctive than telisha at פלא, the watchword of the whole; and above all, we should expect a zakeph at שׁמו, and not at גבור. This also applies to our (the ordinary) explanation. It does not correspond to the accentuation. The introductory words שׁמו ויקרא ought to have a stronger distinctive accent, in order that all which follows might stand as the name which they introduce. Francke (see Psalter, ii. 521) perceived this, and in his Abyssus mysteriorum Esa (ix. 6) he lays great stress upon the fact, that God who gives the name has Himself a threefold name.)

We regard the whole, from פלא onwards - as the connection, the expression, and the syntax require - as a dependent accusative predicate to שמו ויקרא (they call his name), which stands at the head (compare קרא, they call, it is called, in Gen_11:9; Gen_16:14; Jos_7:26, and above Isa_8:4, ישׂא, they will carry: Ges. §137, 3). If it be urged, as an objection to the Messianic interpretation of Isa_7:14-15, that the Christ who appeared was not named Immanuel, but Jesus, this objection is sufficiently met by the fact that He did not receive as a proper name any one of the five names by which, according to this second prophecy, He was to be called. Moreover, this objection would apply quite as strongly to the notion, which has been a very favourite one with Jewish commentators (e.g., Rashi, A. E. Kimchi, Abravanel, Malbim, Luzzatto, and others), and even with certain Christian commentators (such as Grotius, Gesenius, etc.), that the prophecy refers to Hezekiah - a notion which is a disgrace to those who thereby lead both themselves and others astray. For even if the hopes held out in the prophecy were attached for a long time to Hezekiah, the mistake was but too quickly discovered; whereas the commentators in question perpetuate the mistake, by forcing it upon the prophecy itself, although the prophet, even after the deception had been outlived, not only did not suppress the prophecy, but handed it down to succeeding ages as awaiting a future and infallible fulfilment. For the words in their strict meaning point to the Messiah, whom men may for a time, with pardonable error, have hoped to find in Hezekiah, but whom, with unpardonable error, men refused to acknowledge, even when He actually appeared in Jesus. The name Jesus is the combination of all the Old Testament titles used to designate the Coming One according to His nature and His works. The names contained in Isa_7:14 and Isa_9:6 are not thereby suppressed; but they have continued, from the time of Mary downwards, in the mouths of all believers. There is not one of these names under which worship and homage have not been paid to Him. But we never find them crowded together anywhere else, as we do here in Isaiah; and in this respect also our prophet proves himself the greatest of the Old Testament evangelists.

The first name is פּלא, or perhaps more correctly פּלא, which is not to be taken in connection with the next word, יועץ, though this construction might seem to commend itself in accordance with עצה הפליא, in Isa_28:29. This is the way in which it has been taken by the Seventy and others (thus lxx, θαυμαστὸς σύμβουλος; Theodoret, θαυμαστῶς βουλεύων). If we adopted this explanation, we might regard יועץ פלא as an inverted form for פלא יועץ: counselling wonderful things. The possibility of such an inversion is apparent from Isa_22:2, מלאה תשׁאות, i.e., full of tumult. Or, following the analogy of pere' âdâm (a wild man) in Gen_16:12, we might regard it as a genitive construction: a wonder of a counsellor; in which case the disjunctive teilshâh gedolâh in pele' would have to be exchanged for a connecting mahpach. Both combinations have their doubtful points, and, so far as the sense is concerned, would lead us rather to expect עצה מפליא; whereas there is nothing at all to prevent our taking פלא and יועץ as two separate names (not even the accentuation, which is without parallel elsewhere, so far as the combination of pashta with teilshah is concerned, and therefore altogether unique). Just as the angel of Jehovah, when asked by Manoah what was his name (Jdg_13:18), replied פּלי (פּלאי), and indicated thereby his divine nature - a nature incomprehensible to mortal men; so here the God-given ruler is also pele', a phenomenon lying altogether beyond human conception or natural occurrence. Not only is this or that wonderful in Him; but He Himself is throughout a wonder - παραδοξασμός, as Symmachus renders it. The second name if yō‛ētz, counsellor, because, by virtue of the spirit of counsel which He possesses (Isa_11:2), He can always discern and given counsel for the good of His nation. There is no need for Him to surround Himself with counsellors; but without receiving counsel at all, He counsels those that are without counsel, and is thus the end of all want of counsel to His nation as a whole. The third name, El gibbor, attributes divinity to Him. Not, indeed, if we render the words “Strength, Hero,” as Luther does; or “Hero of Strength,” as Meier has done; or “a God of a hero,” as Hofmann proposes; or “Hero-God,” i.e., one who fights and conquers like an invincible god, as Ewald does. But all these renderings, and others of a similar kind, founder, without needing any further refutation, on Isa_10:21, where He, to whom the remnant of Israel will turn with penitence, is called El gibbor (the mighty God). There is no reason why we should take El in this name of the Messiah in any other sense than in Immanu-El; not to mention the fact that El in Isaiah is always a name of God, and that the prophet was ever strongly conscious of the antithesis between El and âdâm, as Isa_31:3 (cf., Hos_11:9) clearly shows. And finally, El gibbor was a traditional name of God, which occurs as early as Deu_10:17, cf., Jer_32:18; Neh_9:32; Psa_24:8, etc. The name gibbor is used here as an adjective, like shaddai in El shaddai. The Messiah, then, is here designated “mighty God.” Undoubtedly this appears to go beyond the limits of the Old Testament horizon; but what if it should go beyond them? It stands written once for all, just as in Jer_23:6 Jehovah Zidkenu (Jehovah our Righteousness) is also used as a name of the Messiah - a Messianic name, which even the synagogue cannot set aside (vid., Midrash Mishle 57a, where this is adduced as one of the eight names of the Messiah). Still we must not go too far. If we look at the spirit of the prophecy, the mystery of the incarnation of God is unquestionably indicated in such statements as these. But if we look at the consciousness of the prophet himself, nothing further was involved than this, that the Messiah would be the image of God as no other man ever had been (cf., El, Psa_82:1), and that He would have God dwelling within Him (cf., Jer_33:16). Who else would lead Israel to victory over the hostile world, than God the mighty? The Messiah is the corporeal presence of this mighty God; for He is with Him, He is in Him, and in Him He is with Israel. The expression did not preclude the fact that the Messiah would be God and man in one person; but it did not penetrate to this depth, so far as the Old Testament consciousness was concerned.​
 
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Der Alte

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Keil-Delitszch -Isa 9:6 – The fourth name springs out of the third: אבי־עד, eternal Father (not Booty Father, with which Hitzig and Knobel content themselves); for what is divine must be eternal. The title Eternal Father designates Him, however, not only as the possessor of eternity (Hengstenberg), but as the tender, faithful, and wise trainer, guardian, and provider for His people even in eternity (Isa_22:21). He is eternal Father, as the eternal, loving King, according to the description in Ps 72. Now, if He is mighty God, and uses His divine might in eternity for the good of His people, He is also, as the fifth name affirms, sar-shâl, a Prince who removes all peace-disturbing powers, and secures peace among the nations (Zec_9:10) - who is, as it were, the embodiment of peace come down into the world of nations (Mic_5:4). To exalt the government of David into an eternal rule of peace, is the end for which He is born; and moreover He proves Himself to be what He is not only called, but actually is.​
2ducklow said:
[size=-1]Joh 17:11And I am no longer in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one as we. darby[/size]

Your second misinterpretation of scripture. You presume that it reads, “your name which you have given me.” But in the Greek the exact same words appear in vss. 11 and 12. [size=+1]ους δεδωκας μοι[/size]. Without even knowing Greek grammar, what did Jesus keep in vs. 12, "God’s name" or the disciples, God gave him?

Now for the grammar, the word translated “which,” vs. 11, and “those whom,” vs. 12, is [size=+1]ους[/size] it is the Relative pronoun, Accusative, Plural, Masculine. Therefore it cannot be referring to the name, singular.

And last, God’s name is [size=+1]יהוה[/size]/YHWH. The Hebrew name of Jesus is [size=+1]יהושע[/size]/Y’hoshua or the diminuitive, [size=+1]ישוע[/size]/Yeshua. [size=+1]ישוע[/size]/Yeshua is a Theophoric name, it does contain part of the name of God, but it is not, [size=+1]יהוה[/size]/YHWH, which is God's name. And, if Jesus had God's name, so did Joshua, the names are exactly the same.
John 17:9 I pray for them. I don't pray for the world, but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.
10 All things that are mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.
11 I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them through your name which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in your name. Those whom you have given me I have kept. None of them is lost, except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

9 [size=+1]εγω περι αυτων ερωτω ου περι του κοσμου ερωτω αλλα περι ων δεδωκας μοι οτι σοι εισιν[/size]
10 [size=+1]και τα εμα παντα σα εστιν και τα σα εμα και δεδοξασμαι εν αυτοις[/size]
11 [size=+1]και ουκ ετι ειμι εν τω κοσμω και ουτοι εν τω κοσμω εισιν και εγω προς σε ερχομαι πατερ αγιε τηρησον αυτους εν τω ονοματι σου ους δεδωκας μοι ινα ωσιν εν καθως ημεις[/size]
12 [size=+1]οτε ημην μετ αυτων εν τω κοσμω εγω ετηρουν αυτους εν τω ονοματι σου ους δεδωκας μοι εφυλαξα και ουδεις εξ αυτων απωλετο ει μη ο υιος της απωλειας ινα η γραφη πληρωθη[/size]​
Do tell us some more about that bad Theology.
 
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2ducklow

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deralter said:
But in the Greek the exact same words appear in vss. 11 and 12. [SIZE=+1]ους δεδωκας μοι[/SIZE]. Without even knowing Greek grammar, what did Jesus keep in vs. 12, "God’s name" or the disciples, God gave him?

Now for the grammar, the word translated “which,” vs. 11, and “those whom,” vs. 12, is
[SIZE=+1]ους[/SIZE] it is the Relative pronoun, Accusative, Plural, Masculine. Therefore it cannot be referring to the name, singular.
Ους is an interpolation and not original. It is the same case in both verse 11, and 12.
17.11 ω δεδωκας μοι {C}


The reading that best accounts for the origin of the others has also the strongest attestation: the difficulty of ω (which is read by p60vid, 66vid, Aleph A B C K L W ΔΘ Π Ψ 054 F1 F13 28 565 700 Byz Lect) prompted some copyists to replace the dative(which is attracted to the case of the antecedent) with the accusative ο (D* X 2148 al) or with the plural ους (bold here is mine 2dl) (Db 892vid 1009 vg goth eth geo2 al). The latter correction could also have been prompted by the recolection of ver. 6 or the statement in 18.9 ...........
A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, Bruce Metzger, 1975. p.249-250.

Please note that it was the difficulty that copiest had with the dative ω which is attracted to the antecedent which is God's name. They couldn't handle the fact that scripture was saying Jesus was given God's own name so they changed it.
deralter said:
And last, God’s name is [SIZE=+1]יהוה
deralter said:
/YHWH. The Hebrew name of Jesus is [SIZE=+1]יהושע[/SIZE]/Y’hoshua or the diminuitive, [SIZE=+1]ישוע[/SIZE]/Yeshua. [SIZE=+1]ישוע[/SIZE]/Yeshua is a Theophoric name, it does contain part of the name of God, but it is not, [SIZE=+1]יהוה[/SIZE]/YHWH, which is God's name. And, if Jesus had God's name, so did Joshua, the names are exactly the same.
[/SIZE]

Correct, Jesus real name is joshua, Jesus is a result of it being changed into greek then latin then into english. . God is called in the OT Jahweh oshea or 'God the savior'. Jesus name is Ja oshea.
.
 
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2ducklow

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EchoPneuma said:
The word "name" in Isa 9:6 is "Shem" in Hebrew and means Honor, authority, character or position. It doesn't mean what He is called but rather his POSITION, CHARACTER and AUTHORITY.

So Jesus POSITION is EVERLASTING FATHER and His AUTHORITY is MIGHTY GOD and His CHARACTER is WONDERFUL COUNSELOR AND PRINCE OF PEACE. That word "shem" means much more than just a name.

Jesus is God incarnated into flesh.

I looked up shem in Strong's concordance and found that the primary meaning of the word is this
strongs said:
An appelation, as a mark or memorial of individuality; by implication honor, authority, character:.......

An appelation is a name. you have stated the implied meaning of shem as what it denotes. shem does not denote honor, authority, or character, it implies it or conotes it. Your facts are incorrect.
 
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derater/keil said:
Jehovah Zidkenu (Jehovah our Righteousness) is also used as a name of the Messiah - a Messianic name, which even the synagogue cannot set aside (vid., Midrash Mishle 57a, where this is adduced as one of the eight names of the Messiah). Still we must not go too far. If we look at the spirit of the prophecy, the mystery of the incarnation of God is unquestionably indicated in such statements as these. But if we look at the consciousness of the prophet himself, nothing further was involved than this, that the Messiah would be the image of God as no other man ever had been (cf., El, Psa_82:1), and that He would have God dwelling within Him (cf., Jer_33:16). Who else would lead Israel to victory over the hostile world, than God the mighty? The Messiah is the corporeal presence of this mighty God; for He is with Him, He is in Him, and in Him He is with Israel.The expression did not preclude the fact that the Messiah would be God and man in one person; but it did not penetrate to this depth, so far as the Old Testament consciousness was concerned.
Yes jehovah our righteousness is a name of god as well as Jehovah our savior. AS you pointed out Ja is diminutive for jehovah. so Jesus name is his father's name. which is why scripture says that JEsus was given the name that is above every other name that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow.

Philippians 2:9-10 Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,ASV

Which cooberates John 17:11.

John 17:11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are.ASV

It doesn't preclude a lot of things, that's no proof that it could mean that jesus is both god and man. I am in complete accord with this part except for the use of incarnation (I would substitue indwelling of God For God did not turn himself into a lowly man)
 
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EchoPneuma said:
Good thing we don't have to understand all this stuff to be saved. The scripture that Gregorian shows does say what it says....and yet Jesus calls Himself "I AM" in the gospels and receives worship from Thomas who calls Him "My Lord and MY GOD". By receiving worship He was showing He believed Himself to be God (because only God is worthy of worship) and He didn't correct Thomas.

So there, once again, appears to be a paradox in scriptures. What is the truth? I guess we will just have to go to God and ask Him....

Jesus said "I am..." and discribed himself... he did not say "I am the 'I AM'" ...

Example: "I am sitting here on the computer."

By saying that, I'm NOT claiming to be God... I'm just discribing myself. Likewise, just because Jesus described himself, starting a sentance saying what he was (i.e. "I am...") doesn't mean he's claiming to be the 'I am.' Example: Jesus could say "I am God's son." He's not claiming to BE god... he's claiming to be his son... that's not the same thing.
 
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EchoPneuma

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The Gregorian said:
Jesus said "I am..." and discribed himself... he did not say "I am the 'I AM'" ...

Example: "I am sitting here on the computer."

By saying that, I'm NOT claiming to be God... I'm just discribing myself. Likewise, just because Jesus described himself, starting a sentance saying what he was (i.e. "I am...") doesn't mean he's claiming to be the 'I am.' Example: Jesus could say "I am God's son." He's not claiming to BE god... he's claiming to be his son... that's not the same thing.

Here's the context of what Jesus said....there was a reason that the Pharisees picked up stones to stone Him when He said it. He was using the OT name of God (I AM) in reference to Himself. Here it is from John 8...


54Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" 58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

Jesus didn't say "I am (fill in the blank)"...He said "before Abraham was born I AM" in answer to their question of how He could have seen Abraham. He used the OT name of God in reference to Himself and His having seen Abraham because He was the "I AM" of the OT.

Jesus also said...

John 8:23
But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world

If Jesus was just a man and not God in the flesh, then He would be of this world...but He says that He is FROM ABOVE and NOT of ths world.
 
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Brennin

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2ducklow said:
The son is not equal to God the Father. that is a direct contradiction of Jesus own words, "My Father is greater than I." Many would say 'oh well see Jesus is equal to the father now that he is in heaven." NOT. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father right now. A subordinate position next to God.

I can say unequivocaly that for me there is but one God, the Father. I don't have to resort to illogic such as 3 is one. for me one is one, and god is one and god the father is the only true god. all other gods are false gods per 1 cor. 8;6. I am unequviocally a monothiest. . One god , God the Father, that's it. there aren'tany other gods (there are false gods but they don't count). I use to say that Jesus is god in the sense that all the fullness of the divinity dwells in him, but this is fudging. Jesus is a man, not god, god is not a man.

Amen!
 
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Brennin

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Deren said:
Not any more than the Mormons saying that God is a man, when the Bible says that he isn't. Or that Jesus is Satan's brother, when the Bible says that Jesus created the being who would become Satan. Or the Mormon line which tells us that the Holy Spirit ("Ghost") can only be in one place at at time, while the Bible says that he is in every person that God has regenerated.

You misrepresent Mormon doctrine.
 
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The Son is equal to the Father in the sense that he is Elohim (Family), a member of the God Family and a God, but within that family, as in the human family, the Father is supreme, and it is he who procreates or begets offspring.

Jesus always stated that he was submissive to the will of the Father, and never acted independently, as he stated many times:
John 14:28; I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I.

1 Cor. 15:28; And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

John 5:30; I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge; and my judgement is just; because i seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 6:57; As the living Father hath sent me,and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

John 8:28; I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. V.29; And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I always do those things that please him.

John 5:19; Verily, verily, I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but as he seeth the Father do...

John 5:26; For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given the Son to have life in himself.

John 14:10; Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me. he doeth the works

John 15:10; If you keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

John 17:3; And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

John 20:17; Jesus sayeth unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend to my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God.

Matthew 11:27; All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and whomsoever the Son will reveal him

Jesus always acknowledged the Father as being supreme in all things, and always did the will of the Father. He certainly did not consider himself to be coequal with the Father. He was guided by the Spirit of the Father within him.
 
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2ducklow

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Peterson said:
The Son is equal to the Father in the sense that he is Elohim (Family), a member of the God Family and a God, but within that family, as in the human family, the Father is supreme, and it is he who procreates or begets offspring.

Jesus always stated that he was submissive to the will of the Father, and never acted independently, as he stated many times:
John 14:28; I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I.

1 Cor. 15:28; And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

John 5:30; I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge; and my judgement is just; because i seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 6:57; As the living Father hath sent me,and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

John 8:28; I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. V.29; And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I always do those things that please him.

John 5:19; Verily, verily, I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but as he seeth the Father do...

John 5:26; For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given the Son to have life in himself.

John 14:10; Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me. he doeth the works

John 15:10; If you keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

John 17:3; And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

John 20:17; Jesus sayeth unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend to my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God.

Matthew 11:27; All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and whomsoever the Son will reveal him

Jesus always acknowledged the Father as being supreme in all things, and always did the will of the Father. He certainly did not consider himself to be coequal with the Father. He was guided by the Spirit of the Father within him.
If you had only left off the part that I put in bold red we could be in complete accord.
 
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LittleNipper

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It must be understood that the Lord Jesus Christ came into this would to live on this earth as a human. In that regard HE placed HIMSELF in submission to the FATHER and the FATHER was aware of things that Jesus did not know because Jesus was fully man. That doesn't meand that HE was no longer GOD. It means that Christ took on a human form and it appears that CHRIST will keep this form forever.
 
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2ducklow

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LittleNipper said:
It must be understood that the Lord Jesus Christ came into this would to live on this earth as a human. In that regard HE placed HIMSELF in submission to the FATHER and the FATHER was aware of things that Jesus did not know because Jesus was fully man. That doesn't meand that HE was no longer GOD. It means that Christ took on a human form and it appears that CHRIST will keep this form forever.

All of which means that Jesus is God, God the father is god, they arent each other, but of course there is only one god. people pretend like this isn't a problem, but it condemns trinity as being false.
 
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hybrid

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haya cleany,

i said said:
yap, it's quite problematic enough to begin with as to how god was to go about entering creation to save us and convinced that he loves us without totally consuming it with his glorius presence

you said said:
no offence but i really dont like this. you talk as if it is a science experiment with god and creation being items in a test tube. the words "god", "entering" (in context), and "creation", if not others here, really need to be defined properly to ambark on any kind of analytical thinking.


I was referring or alluding to god's divine economy. for this is essentialy where one would arrived at when he embarks on an analytical thinking of the trinity.


.
 
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jeffC

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Here are some examples of NT scriptures that use the word "one," the same word used two posts ago to justify the doctrine of the Trinity.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have
given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Matthew 19:17 And [Jesus] said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Galations 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all onein Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

As you can see, Just because Jesus said He was one with the Father doesn't mean He is the same person as the Father. And just because the Nicene Creed says so doesn't make a Triune God reality.

Here are some keys to understanding the relationship between Jesus and the Heavenly Father:

1) Jesus and His Father are separate individuals (John 20:17, 1 Cor 8:6, John 3:16, Rom 15:6).
2) God the Father made Jesus God (Acts 2:36, Heb 1:2, 1 Cor 15:28, John 3:35, John 5:26, Rev 3:14).
3) Jesus is Jehovah of the Old Testament (see post #13 & #17)
4) Jesus represents His Father and His Father's will in all things. Jesus is the mediator of dealings between the Heavenly Father and man. (Col 1:19, Col 2:9, 1 Cor 11:3, 1 Jn 2:1)

edit: (I deleted my final paragraph as a result of hybrid's post - my comments regarding the creed are clarified in my next post)
 
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hybrid

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2dl,

2dl said:
I use to say that Jesus is god in the sense that all the fullness of the divinity dwells in him, but this is fudging.

This is not fudging. You got it right the first time. Jesus is god in the sense that the fullness of divinity dwells in him.

Jesus is a man, not god,

Jesus was NOT JUST A MAN as your shibboleth was trying to say. consider the following verses….

Acts 10:25-26 - NKJV
As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter lifted him up, saying, "STAND UP; I MYSELF AM ALSO A MAN."

Rev 19:10 - NIV
At this I (John) fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. WORSHIP GOD!

Luke 24:52 - NKJV
And they (the 500 disciples) worshiped Him (Jesus) , and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,

Ps. Don’t bother to explain to me that the word worship here was proskuno as differentiated from sebomai. As far as the scriptures were concerned, they are PRACTICALLY the same, both expression of worship must be addressed to GOD alone and not to mere men or fellow servant angels. As peter and the angels clearly stated in acts and revelation. Now we see in luke Jesus was worshipped. Now you do the deduction, oh sensible one.

god is not a man.

Yap. No disagreement with this last part what so ever. but if you implying that Trinitarian believed this, your misrepresentin.

God became a man, is more liked it. And its not entirely nonsensical to consider that god cannot, and why he won’t do it. No?


.
 
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