Trinity not specifically in scripture?

[sin_vladimirov]

'92-'96... that is why I asked you about them! (never baptised but was a "friend") I got "taken" out into the "world" when I came to Australia.

 

[Kolya]

And I really wish the JWs and Mormons would stop knocking at my door!

Zinnia, I don't know quite what your personal Theological belief in Christ is, but I found the fastest way to send them packing is to tell them at the door you believe God died! They'll back off from you like you were the devil. I know, it happened to me.

 

[Kolya]

... I got "taken" out into the "world" when I came to Australia.

My oh my, it's a small world. But it's very hard for a die-hard like myself to get "taken into the world". lol

Fortunatly, I had studied my way out, and I was looking for a new church home. I actually was looking for the Original Christian Church, and I was pleasantly surprised to find I had been going there with Seraphima already. From the time I started as a catacumen till I was chrismated was 6 months! I really 'lapped up' Orthodoxy, and I can't believe now that I was anything else.

 

[Kolya]

Vlad, I thought it was just Jehovahs Witnesses that believed that! I didn't realize other Christian denominations followed that gross belief.

Hi Mort!

The SDA's 'Prophet' Ellen White, states catagorically that Michael the Archangel is Jesus!

I was one too.

Now that's one to make you think!

 

[sin_vladimirov]

Kolya, thats why I asked you.. It is a small world.

One of my Pastors from Serbia (who was so adamant that I should be baptised SDA) will be studying with me on the Orthodox Theology in Belgrade if it is according to Gods will for me to enroll this fall (September). He "came out" last year!
Now THAT is so weird.

 

[Michael G]

At your baptism in the Jordan worship of the trinity was revealed.

 

[Kolya]

One of my Pastors from Serbia (who was so adamant that I should be baptised SDA) will be studying with me on the Orthodox Theology in Belgrade if it is according to Gods will for me to enroll this fall (September). He "came out" last year!
Now THAT is so weird.

Halleuia! God is working with His children EVERYWHERE. They're coming home from all sides!

 

[Dust and Ashes]

And the struggle against our sins is of cosmic proportions.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

In evangelical Protestantism, the struggle against sin is not viewed the same as it is by Orthodox. When one "gets saved" it's pretty much over. You resist sin the best you can but if you fail, it's no big deal, just repent and ask forgiveness until the next time since Jesus died for ALL of our sins (past, present, future) and don't worry about it. As long as you don't fall into apostacy, you are ok.

So, you see, the struggle against sin isn't that big of a deal.

Unless you become Orthodox...then it seems like Satan jumps on you with both feet. I wonder why that is?

 

[MORTANIUS]

For me, it is the struggle against ourselves, our sins, the temptations of the world, and against all untruth/lies, and against the author of those lies. These effect everything, as Paul noted in Romans; the whole creation groans until now (Christ's redemption).

Think about it, sin and temptation are ubiquitous.

I see now. I agree that our struggle is against ourselves, but I would not go as far to call that "cosmic proportions"

 

[sin_vladimirov]

I see now. I agree that our struggle is against ourselves, but I would not go as far to call that "cosmic proportions"

If I am allowed to say, the reason why you are wrong, that is why IT IS of cosmic proportions lies in physical laws and connection in and of the universe.

All earthly nature has fallen with Adam. Not just human. As a result of that fall some things have changed. But some things have changed in cosmos also. Notably, the existance of sin which is not felt only on this earth but through out the cosmos. The consequence is felt on this planet but how can we expect that sin can be "separated" from the rest of creation?

There are two, opposite answers on this:
1) The rest of the creation IS NOT separated from our existence.
2) The rest of the creation IS separated from our existence.

In both solutions sin is causing change in the universe.

In first case because sin is here therefore it is in cosmos, because it is not separated from it, sin is in cosmos thus changing it. The results of fallen natures is felt because there is no separation from our fallen nature.

In the second case, sin IS separated, thus the order of the universe IS changed. For the reason of "containment" the universe created has to be changed so that sin can be separated.

Also, everything in the physics is connected. Nothing is by itself for itself and of itself. (God is not part of nature, He is beyond it, above it, outside of it.- Physics are laws of our existence-fallen existence).


So there are two aspects of the fall, better, ther are two falls.

Firstly, the angels that have fallen and have crated the un-natural separation in hate from the creation in love.

Secondly, the crown of all creation, the only created being that lives in both Spiritual and Physical existence has fallen, thus sold its glory for sin and assumed fallen nature.

The fallen nature in both cases is anti-creation (opposite of creation, un-creation). And as such it is felt on cosmic scale. It is so felt that God has to come and by incarantion and death, glorious resurrection in the third day and asumption and sitting on the right hand, HE is re-creating, lifting up our fallen nature, killing death and sin.

Thus, it is not local but a cosmic struggle.


in ICXC
stefan+

 

[elizabethevangeline]

OK, don't laugh...but is this where we could draw a connection to the degradation of our environment as a symptom of sin in the world?

...and is this at the root of the idea that natural catastrophes are evidence that the end is drawing closer?

 

[Marjorie]

OK, don't laugh...but is this were we could draw a connection to the degradation of our environment as a symptom of sin in the world?

The EP thinks so, in any case: http://www.patriarchate.org/SPEECHES/1994/Sept_1-Environmental_enc.html

On this count, I agree with him.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

 

[elizabethevangeline]

Really? Cool...I'm so proud of myself. Obviously I'm in need of some intellectual conversation...I'm feeling very out of practice.

So, are we saying that it's not just because of sinful acts of humanity, but also because creation itself has experienced separation from the Creator, therefore going thru some kind of withdrawl, or deterioration?

 

[Marjorie]

Really? Cool...I'm so proud of myself. Obviously I'm in need of some intellectual conversation...I'm feeling very out of practice.

So, are we saying that it's not just because of sinful acts of humanity, but also because creation itself has experienced separation from the Creator, therefore going thru some kind of withdrawl, or deterioration?

Well, ultimately it is about the sinful acts of humanity, because it was through us that Creation experienced separation from the Cretor. But, yeah. It is fallen into decay and is getting worse and worse as the world falls away more.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

 

[elizabethevangeline]

Thanks...this is fun. And I'm feeling the urge to go admire my flowers and be kind to my garden. I'm what I call an abusive gardener...I plant things and hope they do well, cause for the most part, they're on their own!

 

[Marjorie]

Thanks...this is fun. And I'm feeling the urge to go admire my flowers and be kind to my garden. I'm what I call an abusive gardener...I plant things and hope they do well, cause for the most part, they're on their own!

Yes I'm a neglectful flower-mother too...

But in reference to Creation and its decay and its redemption, at the Feast of Mid-Pentecost on Wednesday at the monastery we went around the monastery in procession, sprinkling holy water on all the plants and flowers... and I was just struck about how Orthodoxy is so physical, so real and natural, and I will remember it for next time someone tells me that Orthodoxy is too "otherworldly." We're not either too otherworldly or too this-worldly... it's a false dilemma because the kingdom of this world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ!

In IC XC,
Marjorie

 

[Maximus]

I see now. I agree that our struggle is against ourselves, but I would not go as far to call that "cosmic proportions"

"Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand" (Ephesians 6:11-13).

No offense, but that sounds like a struggle of cosmic proportions to me.

 

[elizabethevangeline]

...at the Feast of Mid-Pentecost on Wednesday at the monastery we went around the monastery in procession, sprinkling holy water on all the plants and flowers... and I was just struck about how Orthodoxy is so physical, so real and natural, and I will remember it for next time someone tells me that Orthodoxy is too "otherworldly." We're not either too otherworldly or too this-worldly... it's a false dilemma because the kingdom of this world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ!

I used to roll my eyes at the whole "holistic" thing...I didn't really understand what the fuss was about. My understanding is still limited, but I'm starting to get an idea why it is important...like you say...it's real...reality includes physical life in a way I've never addressed or connected to.

Do you remember the Steve Martin movie "The Man with Two Brains"?...it was so funny to me because when I would question reality, I always wondered how did we know we weren't just brains in jars, only thinking we were living in bodies...actually The Matrix covers it more seriously...

Anyways! I feel like I've been a brain in a jar....

 

[MORTANIUS]

Ahem!