Trinity=Monotheism?

[Breckmin]

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." 1 John 5:7 (KJV)

Note: Jesus (the man) is not in the mix. . . not yet.

I wouldn't read too much (inductively) into this verse. Not only is it an interpolation... it is also not addressing any theology regarding the doctrine of eternal sonship, the Incarnation of Christ, the Hypostatic Union...NOR the relationship of Jesus as "logos" verses Jesus as the Son of Man.

It is actually VERY DANGEROUS to do that type of induction...and that is the type of thinking that often leads to misinterpretations that can even start cults (or cultic thinking like the likes of Harold Camping or the Watch Tower or Scientology, etc).

The bottom line is that trying to "define the trinity" is complicated. When such complication arises...all sorts of misunderstandings between brothers and sisters in Christ being to emerge.

I feel safer being an ANT Monotheist because it allows a Christian to say "I don't know" when it comes to defining ontological trinity where the bible doesn't specify such definition.

Operating in English doesn't identify the dynamic equivalence we see in the Latin words in the Creeds...NOR does it deal with the original meanings of the koine Greek words almost 2000 years ago.

I see lots truth on both sides of this discussion...

Identifying equivocations on phrases, words, meanings and definitions would be most helpful....I believe.

 

[Ormly]

I wouldn't read too much (inductively) into this verse. Not only is it an interpolation... it is also not addressing any theology regarding the doctrine of eternal sonship, the Incarnation of Christ, the Hypostatic Union...NOR the relationship of Jesus as "logos" verses Jesus as the Son of Man.

It is actually VERY DANGEROUS to do that type of induction...and that is the type of thinking that often leads to misinterpretations that can even start cults (or cultic thinking like the likes of Harold Camping or the Watch Tower or Scientology, etc).

The bottom line is that trying to "define the trinity" is complicated. When such complication arises...all sorts of misunderstandings between brothers and sisters in Christ being to emerge.

I feel safer being an ANT Monotheist because it allows a Christian to say "I don't know" when it comes to defining ontological trinity where the bible doesn't specify such definition.

Operating in English doesn't identify the dynamic equivalence we see in the Latin words in the Creeds...NOR does it deal with the original meanings of the koine Greek words almost 2000 years ago.

I see lots truth on both sides of this discussion...

Identifying equivocations on phrases, words, meanings and definitions would be most helpful....I believe.

Fine. Now what do you do with the words: "Lets US make man in OUR OWN IMAGE"??

 

[Breckmin]

Fine. Now what do you do with the words: "Lets US make man in OUR OWN IMAGE"??

This phrase "u-i-amir alein noshe adm b-tzlm-nu k-dmuth-nu" contains a plural word form for deity/deities "alein" which is where we get the word Elohim.

Before I even begin to explain the "sitz im leben" here with respect to philology and the ancient Hebrew language - I would ask a question.

Have you ever thought of asking an Orthodox Jew how they explain this?

Clearly they don't believe in a plurality of the Godhead, and yet they still hold to the Torah, correct?

Before you counter with "they are blind to the Holy things of God" - please
understand that I am not asking for their contribution to the doctrine of
the Trinity. What I am wanting you to see is how they approach the
historical word "Elohim" and how this word was commonly used among the
Israelite s and surrounding pagans during this time period.

The Hebrew phrase you are referring to is actually more dynamically equivalent
to "and·he-is-saying Elohim we-shall-make/do man/human in·image-of·us
as·likeness-of·us."

I don't believe this plurality is just due to the ancient language. I also believe
it is an incredible coincidence (God's providence) as to how this relates to
the way in which God has revealed Himself and had a relationship to us through
the various roles of economic Trinity.

IOW, God is in control of all things...including the ancient languages which
were somewhat undeveloped - especially with respect to theology and spiritual
concepts.

Whereas others will trivialize "Elohim" as a common Hebrew word for "gods"
and that that is the reason for its plurality - I would apt for an understanding
that God together acted with all things in the writing of scripture in the ancient Hebrew and gave
us a Trinitarian interpretation to possess in the current church age.

Perhaps what you are struggling with is "complication."

When things get complicated...accusations fly. We are observing this in
your dialogue/postings with Simonline. Both of you appear to be believers.
You both believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One God..correct?

Be careful you don't fall into the trap of over defining your differences.

 

[Breckmin]

@ Ormly

Are you a trichotomist who believes that this phrase means that God created humankind (man) "body, soul and spirit?"

 

[Ormly]

@ Ormly

Are you a trichotomist who believes that this phrase means that God created humankind (man) "body, soul and spirit?"

If that is what it means then, yes, I do. . . . and the soul and spirit can never die in sense we speak of death..

 

[Ormly]

This phrase "u-i-amir alein noshe adm b-tzlm-nu k-dmuth-nu" contains a plural word form for deity/deities "alein" which is where we get the word Elohim.

Before I even begin to explain the "sitz im leben" here with respect to philology and the ancient Hebrew language - I would ask a question.

Have you ever thought of asking an Orthodox Jew how they explain this?

Clearly they don't believe in a plurality of the Godhead, and yet they still hold to the Torah, correct?

Before you counter with "they are blind to the Holy things of God" - please
understand that I am not asking for their contribution to the doctrine of
the Trinity. What I am wanting you to see is how they approach the
historical word "Elohim" and how this word was commonly used among the
Israelite s and surrounding pagans during this time period.

The Hebrew phrase you are referring to is actually more dynamically equivalent
to "and·he-is-saying Elohim we-shall-make/do man/human in·image-of·us
as·likeness-of·us."

I don't believe this plurality is just due to the ancient language. I also believe
it is an incredible coincidence (God's providence) as to how this relates to
the way in which God has revealed Himself and had a relationship to us through
the various roles of economic Trinity.

IOW, God is in control of all things...including the ancient languages which
were somewhat undeveloped - especially with respect to theology and spiritual
concepts.

Whereas others will trivialize "Elohim" as a common Hebrew word for "gods"
and that that is the reason for its plurality - I would apt for an understanding
that God together acted with all things in the writing of scripture in the ancient Hebrew and gave
us a Trinitarian interpretation to possess in the current church age.

Perhaps what you are struggling with is "complication."

When things get complicated...accusations fly. We are observing this in
your dialogue/postings with Simonline. Both of you appear to be believers.
You both believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One God..correct?

Be careful you don't fall into the trap of over defining your differences.

How do the Jews interpret [explain away] the issue of Mose' seeing the hind parts of God [I believe was the Word] when he was set in the cleft of the rock?