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Trinity is it possible ?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by WorshipGodAlone, Dec 27, 2002.

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  1. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

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    Continued...

    A popular alternative to this view is the idea that God referred to himself in the language of royalty (known as the pluralis majestatis.) Writing in his Hebrew Grammar, Gesenius advances the following explanation:

    • Greatness, especially in a metaphorical sense, as associated with power and sovereignty, is plurally expressed. Hence, there are several nouns which are used in the plural as well as the singular, to denote Lord or God (Pluralis majestaticus vel excellentioe) e.g. Eloahh. God is scarcely found in the singular, except in poetry; in prose; commonly elohim; adon, lord, old form of the plural adonai, the Lord, kat exochen (God), shaddai, the Almighty. Often the idea of greatness is no longer associated with the form, the mind having accustomed itself to contemplate the powerful in general as a plural. Another example of the plural majestatis is the use of we by Deity in speaking of Himself (Gen. 1:26; 11:7; Isa. 6:8) and by kings. The German language has it not only in this latter case, but in addressing a second person by Ihr and Sie. This plural is also found in modern Arabic and Persian.
    The use of pluralis majestatis is not a common feature of the Bible, but at least one passage appears to make use of it:

    • Ezra 4:17-18.
      Then sent the king an answer unto Rehum the chancellor, and to Shimshai the scribe, and to the rest of their companions that dwell in Samaria, and unto the rest beyond the river, Peace, and at such a time.
      The letter which ye sent unto us hath been plainly read before me.
    Of course, that's only one verse... but the Trinitarian case rests on a mere four verses, which is hardly substantial itself.

    Let's look at two of them.

    First, the well-known “tower of Babel” story:
    • Genesis 11:6-7.
      And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
      Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
    But who went down? All three "divine persons"? Only two? And which of them? It cannot be Christ, because (a) this would mean that his appearance in Bethlehem would have been his "second advent" (not than his first), and (b) the author of Hebrews (whom I believe to be Paul) is leading us up the garden path when he contrasts the former modes of revelation ("by the prophets") against the latter mode ("in these last days... by his Son.") It cannot be the Father ("Whom no man hath seen, nor can see.")

    This doesn’t leave us with too many options. But when we compare these verses with other passages in which references to God’s angels are interchangeable with references to God Himself (such as Genesis 18 & 19), we find that it is possible to harmonise the evidence of Scripture without resorting to a "plurality of persons" within the Godhead.

    Next, the vision of Isaiah…

    • Isaiah 6:8.
      Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
    ...in which God is surrounded by His heavenly court, and addresses them directly - as He does in the following passage:

    • I Kings 22:19-22.
      And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
      And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
      And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
      And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
    Isaiah certainly believed that God was taking counsel with those around him, because he offered to take God's message to the people, and it should come as no surprise to us that God accepted this offer, just as He did in I Kings 22. I see no evidence for a "plurality of persons" here.

    The problem for Trinitarians who take Genesis 1:26 as a reference to the alleged "plurality" of God, is that (a) only four passages in the entire Bible can be advanced in support of this argument (and in one of those, we are expressly told that God is surrounded by His angels), (b) if God had intended to reveal Himself as a "plurality", it is peculiar that He didn't make it clearer, and (c) there is simply not enough consistency in the argument itself, let alone the Biblical data.

    No Trinitarian has ever succeeded in explaining why God attempted to "prove" His alleged "plurality" by referring to Himself in plural form within the meagre scope of a pitiful four verses, which, if taken as a reference to plurality, flatly contradict the grammatical consistency that we find elsewhere in the Bible. :cool:
     
  2. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

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    Continued...

    The Jews themselves have traditionally believed that the so-called "plurality passages" speak of God addressing His angelic host. Contrary to the claims of modern Evangelicals, this interpretation did not originate as a knee-jerk reaction to later Christian arguments concerning the alleged deity and pre-existence of Christ, but had, in fact, been taught for centuries before his birth.

    The incontrovertible proof of this fact is found in the book of Jubilees - part of the OT pseudepigrapha. While obviously uninspired, this book throws a brilliant light on the Jewish mindset of the pre-Christian era.

    An excerpt to the introduction of Jubilees now follows:

    • The Book of Jubilees is in certain limited aspects the most important book in this volume for the student of religion. Without it we could of course have inferred from Ezra and Nehemiah, the Priests' Code, and the later chapters of Zechariah the supreme position that the law had achieved in Judaism, but without Jubilees we could hardly have imagined such an absolute supremacy as finds expression in this book.

      This absolute supremacy of the law carried with it, as we have seen in the General Introduction, the suppression of prophecy -at all events of the open exercise of the prophetic gifts. And yet these gifts persisted during all the so-called centuries of silence - from Malachi down to N.T. times, but owing to the fatal incubus of the law these gifts could not find expression save in pseudepigraphic literature. Thus Jubilees represents the triumph of the movement, which had been at work for the past three centuries or more.

      And yet this most triumphant manifesto of legalism contained within its pages the element that was destined to dispute its supremacy and finally to reduce the law to the wholly secondary position that alone it could rightly claim. This element of course is apocalyptic, which was the source of the higher theology in Judaism, and subsequently was the parent of Christianity, wherein apocalyptic ceased to be pseudonymous and became one with prophecy.

      The Book of Jubilees was written in Hebrew by a Pharisee between the year of the accession of Hyrcanus to the high priesthood in 135 and his breach with the Pharisees some years before his death in 105 B.C. It is the most advanced pre-Christian representative of the midrashic tendency, which has already been at work in the Old Testament Chronicles. As the Chronicler had rewritten the history of Israel and Judah from the basis of the Priests' Code, so our author re-edited from the Pharisaic standpoint of his time the history of events from the creation to the publication, or, according to the author's view, the republication of the law on Sinai.

      In the course of re-editing he incorporated a large body of traditional lore, which the midrashic process had put at his disposal, and also not a few fresh legal enactments that the exigencies of the past had called forth. His work constitutes an enlarged Targum on Genesis and Exodus, in which difficulties in the biblical narrative are solved, gaps supplied, dogmatically offensive elements removed, and the genuine spirit of later Judaism infused into the primitive history of the world.

      His object was to defend Judaism against the attacks of the hellenistic spirit that had been in the ascendant one generation earlier and was still powerful, and to prove that the law was of everlasting validity. From our author's contentions and his embittered attacks on the paganisers and apostates, we may infer that Hellenism had urged that the levitical ordinances of the law were only of transitory significance, that they had not been observed by the founders of the nation, and that the time had now come for them to be swept away, and for Israel to take its place in the brotherhood of the nations.

      Our author regarded all such views as fatal to the very existence of Jewish religion and nationality. But it is not as such that he assailed them, but on the ground of their falsehood. The law, he teaches, is of everlasting validity. Though revealed in time it was superior to time. Before it had been made known in sundry portions to the fathers it had been kept in heaven by the angels, and to its observance henceforward there was no limit in time or in eternity.

      Writing in the balmiest days of the Maccabean dominion,in the high-priesthood of John Hyrcanus, looked for the immediate advent of the Messianic kingdom. This kingdom was to be ruled over by a Messiah sprung, not from Levi -that is, from the Maccabean family, as some of his contemporaries expected- but from Judah. This kingdom would be gradually realized on earth, and the transformation of physical nature would go hand in hand with the ethical transformation of man till there was a new heaven and a new earth. Thus, finally, all sin and pain would disappear and men would live to the age of 1,000 years in happiness and peace, and after death enjoy a blessed immortality in the spirit world.


      From the Christian Classics Ethereal Library. (See here.)
    It will be seen that the author's theology is a trifle awry - but the essential lineaments of the true Jewish message which necessarily underpins the Christian gospel itself, are clearly visible. Passages where "The LORD" appears and converses directly with humans, are understood by the author of Jubilees as references to "the angel of God's presence"; the name-bearing angel who is known in the Jewish mystical writings as Metatron. This is, of course, exactly what Christadelphians have been saying all along...

    Let us now turn our attention to Jubilees chapter 2, in which the traditional Jewish interpretation of the Genesis creation is carefully described by Mastêmâ, chief of the angels:

    • And the angel of the presence spake to Moses according to the word of the Lord, saying: Write the complete history of the creation, how in six days the Lord God finished all His works and all that He created, and kept Sabbath on the seventh day and hallowed it for all ages, and appointed it as a sign for all His works.

      For on the first day He created the heavens which are above and the earth and the waters and all the spirits which serve before him -the angels of the presence, and the angels of sanctification, and the angels of the spirit of the winds, and the angels of the spirit of the clouds, and of darkness, and of snow and of hail and of hoar frost, and the angels of the voices and of the thunder and of the lightning, and the angels of the spirits of cold and of heat, and of winter and of spring and of autumn and of summer and of all the spirits of his creatures which are in the heavens and on the earth, (He created) the abysses and the darkness, eventide [and night], and the light, dawn and day, which He hath prepared in the knowledge of his heart.

      And thereupon we saw His works, and praised Him, and lauded before Him on account of all His works; for seven great works did He create on the first day.
    Jumping to chapter 3, we find Mastêmâ describing the creation of woman:

    • And on the six days of the second week we brought, according to the word of God, unto Adam all the beasts, and all the cattle, and all the birds, and everything that moves on the earth, and everything that moves in the water, according to their kinds, and according to their types: the beasts on the first day; the cattle on the second day; the birds on the third day; and all that which moves on the earth on the fourth day; and that which moves in the water on the fifth day.

      And Adam named them all by their respective names, and as he called them, so was their name.

      And on these five days Adam saw all these, male and female, according to every kind that was on the earth, but he was alone and found no helpmeet for him.

      And the Lord said unto us: 'It is not good that the man should be alone: let us make a helpmeet for him.'

      And the Lord our God caused a deep sleep to fall upon him, and he slept, and He took for the woman one rib from amongst his ribs, and this rib was the origin of the woman from amongst his ribs, and He built up the flesh in its stead, and built the woman.


      And He awaked Adam out of his sleep and on awaking he rose on the sixth day, and He brought her to him, and he knew her, and said unto her: 'This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called [my] wife; because she was taken from her husband.'
      Therefore shall man and wife be one and therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh.
    In chapter 5, Mastêmâ describes the fall of the angelic watchers:

    • And it came to pass when the children of men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born unto them, that the angels of God saw them on a certain year of this jubilee, that they were beautiful to look upon; and they took themselves wives of all whom they chose, and they bare unto them sons and they were giants."
    In chapter 10, Mastêmâ describes the confusion of languages at Babel:

    • And the Lord our God said unto us: Behold, they are one people, and (this) they begin to do, and now nothing will be withholden from them. Go to, let us go down and confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech, and they may be dispersed into cities and nations, and one purpose will no longer abide with them till the day of judgment.'

      And the Lord descended, and we descended with him to see the city and the tower which the children of men had built.

      And he confounded their language, and they no longer understood one another's speech, and they ceased then to build the city and the tower.

      For this reason the whole land of Shinar is called Babel, because the Lord did there confound all the language of the children of men, and from thence they were dispersed into their cities, each according to his language and his nation."
    Yes, the "angels" interpretation is indeed an ancient one, preceding the Christian era by many centuries - and the author of Jubilees incorporated it into his book, along with many of the other traditional explanations which had existed long before his time. :cool:
     
  3. Stormy

    Stormy Senior Contributor

    +837
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    Quite the contrary. It would be foolish to hate the roots for they support the bloom.
     
  4. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
    Blah! Straw man.

    I was referring to the argument itself, not the roots. :cool:
     
  5. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
    You see, the problem for Trintarians is that Trinitarianism itself, is clearly not found in OT Judaism.

    Ergo, Trinitarian Christianity is a deviation from the Biblical teaching, and cannot be said to have sprung from the Jewish roots upon which true Christianity was established. :cool:
     
  6. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

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  7. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
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    Personification of the Earth---"Let US, me-God and non-sentient ROCK"...

    Non-sentient rock. So, really, in the personification, it was still God talking to HIMSELF. One can hardly expect a lump of inert dirt-n-rock to be much of a conversationist, let alone be much of a partner in the complexity of biogenesis. Really, this would be more akin to "puppetry"---obviously dumb minerals cannot actually create, so GOD would be the puppeteer---His hand of course would be animating the inert planet...

    Tell me, honestly---does this sound CREDIBLE? Do you really think this was the intent of the writer? Or does this sound like the desperation of those who seek to rewrite the Scripture to fit their preconcieved theology? Honestly?

    In John1, Jesus is The Word. The Creative Force. Through which all things were created, and apart from Whom was not anything created WHICH WAS CREATED. Here then is quite a dilemma---if Jesus is NOT God, then He's a created being---but plainly it says, "apart from Jesus was not anything created which has been created"! WHO MADE JESUS???

    C. S. Lewis proposed an argument, which is very much sound today. Jesus MUST have been one of only three things:

    1. God-became-man
    2. Liar
    3. Lunatic

    There is no number four.

    Which one describes Jesus???
     
  8. stillsmallvoice

    stillsmallvoice The Narn rule!

    +173
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    Hi all!

    Ben, regarding the previous post, please let me explain something. The example I gave, and that you quoted, about God allegedly addressing the earth is an example of typre of Jewish Biblical exegesis called drash or midrash. Midrashim (to use the plural) are not generally meant to be taken literally, as you seem to have done; they are essentially homiletic & their value lays in the ideas & moral lessons that they are trying to convey. In this case, our Sages were using a peculiarity of the text as a vehicle to making the point that we are combination of the finite and the spiritual, the earthly and the Godly.

    One of our Sages said that we should all carry around a little bit of earth or sand in one pocket and a piece of paper with Psalm 8:5-6 ("What is man, that You are mindful of him? and the son of man, that you think of him? Yet You have made him but little lower than the angels, and have crowned him with glory and honour.") written on it in the other. When we're feeling on top of the world, we should put our hand in the pocket with the earth in it to prevent our heads from swelling & to humble ourselves a bit. When we're feeling completely worthless & are sure that we can't sink any lower, we should put our hand in the pocket with Psalm 8:5-6 to remind ourselves of our potential & to instill some hope in ourselves. The problem, our Sage said, is that depending on how we're feeling, we tend to stick our hands in the wrong pocket.

    Be well!

    ssv :wave:
     
  9. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is God:

    "The Word was God... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:1, 14).

    "God was manifest in the flesh" (1 Timothy 3:16).

    "The glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).

    "Unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever" (Hebrews 1:8).

    "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

    The Lord Jesus is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last, from everlasting and to everlasting:

    "Thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting" (Micah 5:2); "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8); "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last" (Revelation 1:11); "I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore" (Revelation 1:17-18); "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Revelation 21:5-7); "Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Revelation 22:12-13).

    Jesus is YHWH:

    "Thus saith YHWH the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHWH of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last" (Isaiah 44:6); the Lord Jesus is all of these things: "Thou art the King of Israel" (John 1:49); "Christ hath redeemed us" (Galatians 3:13); "These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive" (Revelation 2:8).

    "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30); "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9); "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him" (John 14:7).

    "Then shall YHWH go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives" (Zechariah 14:3-4). This refers to the Lord Jesus, who will go forth at his 2nd coming and fight against those nations: "and in righteousness he doth judge and make war" (Revelation 19:11).

    "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of YHWH" (Isaiah 40:3). This refers to John the Baptist preparing the way before the Lord Jesus: "The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord" (Mark 1:3); "To make ready a people prepared for the Lord" (Luke 1:17).

    "I am YHWH: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another" (Isaiah 42:8); the Lord Jesus is given that glory: "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" (John 17:5), for Jesus is not another: "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30), "which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Corinthians 2:8); "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory" (Revelation 5:12); "Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever" (Revelation 5:13).

    &nbsp;God the Son is eternally subordinate to God the Father (John 14:28, Mark 14:36), but this makes him no less God, just as a human son can be subordinate to his human father without being any less human.

    God the Word is eternally subordinate to God the Father, but this makes him no less God, just as what you speak and do are always subordinate to you without these being any less you. How could we know you if you never spoke or did anything? In the same way, how could we know the Father except by his Word and Son, Jesus Christ (John 14:6-7, 1:14; Luke 1:35)?

    Subordination isn't antithetical to unity, just as 1a x 1b x 1c = 1abc.
     
  10. EPHRIAM777

    EPHRIAM777 A REAL NICE GUY..!

    448
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    Originally posted by WorshipGodAlone [/i]
    For thousands of years before Jesus came the Jews worshiped a unified god


    Eph scratches head..and asks...!

    What verse from the Hebrew Bible or Torah...would lead you to believe that statememnt you just made..?

    What does unified mean..to you...?
     
  11. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    What I find strange is that people think you cannot understand God.

    Why?

    God makes His nature and plan very clear to us in the Bible, so why do people use the "well, I can't understand it all" excuse when they run into a wall in their own doctrines?

    Did God not in fact simplify things for us with Jesus because the Law wasn't making the cut?&nbsp; Jesus always used parables to try and simplify things for us.&nbsp; It is us who complicate matters.&nbsp;

    I'm not saying God is simple, I'm saying God makes it simple for us to understand His ways.&nbsp; The problem lies in the fact that "His ways are not our ways" so then we complicate matters in search of excuses and self doctrinization.

    I am the first to admit how ignorant I am when it comes to the Bible.&nbsp; There are probably people here who can dance circles around me in scripture (at least in their own understanding or it or told to them by someone else).&nbsp; But the Bible makes it very clear in Genesis that God made us in His image.&nbsp; We have all the same characteristics of God - but&nbsp;we gained, with the tree of knowledge of good and evil,&nbsp;the equal opposites of those characteristics as a choice (Simply put - reason).&nbsp; We can hate rather than love, we can hurt rather than help, we can murder rather than spare life... you could go on and on.

    God isn't so difficult to understand and when the picture clears up for a person in their life you are awestruck when you clearly see God and what He's all about.
     
  12. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

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    As for me I was saying that we can't fully understand God.&nbsp; I can't understand His triune nature or even the incarnation.&nbsp; I know the definitions of what those words mean but how can God come Incarnate?&nbsp; How is God sovereign?&nbsp; Another one that I kind of know about but after much research I find that I do not knw much.&nbsp; See what I mean?&nbsp; God is so much greater than what we can think of.&nbsp; He has explained ot us some of His nature nad attributes and said He was this ir that but we do not know about all of Him.&nbsp; A.W. Tozer said it was like the moon with the dark side and the light side.&nbsp; We see and understand the light side but we can't see the dark side. So we can see and understand what God shows us but not all of God.&nbsp;
     
  13. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    Have you ever had the Holy Spirit come over you (and this usually happens at an unexpected time) and you feel that peace/joy/security/happiness/love/and much much more&nbsp;all at once and it brings you to tear up?&nbsp; It's like God gives you a quick glimpse of His holiness now and then and you see what it is you're moving towards and it's so overwhelming and you feel so obsolete and insignificant at the same time as you realize how graceful God is and how He gives you everything despite your inadequacies?

    I don't think it's impossible to understand God at all.&nbsp; I do believe there are mysteries in the Bible meant to keep you moving and learning.&nbsp; If it was all cut and dry where's the mystery and romance that is in the search for God's glory?&nbsp; It may be when we're in God's presence that we fully understand it *all*, but I believe we can understand God's plan for us and His nature here and now.&nbsp; I don't think we have a prayer if we don't understand His nature, or satan could easily fool us into thinking he was God instead.

    Anyways... back to the point of the thread, can anyone help me with these questions that support Jesus was God and that people who say he was the Son of God (including God) were wrong?&nbsp; He cannot be the Father and the Son at the same time can He?&nbsp; And if He was and that's just not for me to understand, then why do you all claim it like it's cut and dry and that anyone who doesn't accept it is not a Christian?&nbsp;
     
  14. FluviusNeckar

    FluviusNeckar Member

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    How close in union to God can one come without losing one's individuality in the ALL of God?

    Buddhist answer:

    Though Buddhism rejects the idea of god, it postulates nirvana, self-annihilation through enlightenment---one ceases to be separate or distinct from the cosmic ALL, i.e., one ceases to exist and joins the cosmic ALL.

    Christian answer:

    Jesus: completely one with God but still a distinct person. No matter how much we become one with God, our person will remain distinct, enhanced but not subsumed in the ALL of God, the FULLNESS of divinity.

    Jesus had to be God and with God. Otherwise we would have serious grounds for concern about self-annihilation as we near union with God.
     
  15. Live4Jesus

    Live4Jesus Well-Known Member

    +1
    My understanding is like this:

    There IS God the Father, there IS God the son (Jesus) and there IS God in the form of the Holy Spirit.

    Thus, I guess, what some call 'the trinity'.

    Genesis undoubtedly says 'in OUR image' which implies that there were others before the creation with God.

    But Jesus consistently calls Him 'my Father'. And I use the word 'consistently' quite literally. He always says 'my father'. However He also says that He and His Father are ONE.

    Now there is mention of the Holy Spirit in the Old testament, this is not a New Testament invention. And there is mention of certain prophets having a certain spirit of God that was with them throughout their lives as well.

    I believe that what Jesus means by the statement that he and his father are one, is that the spirit of God himself, not a lesser spirit, but God the Father himself was with him. Yet they are also 2 separate persons. Yet they are one, walking in perfect agreement.

    Jesus says to the apostles that he will bring 'the comfortor'. We know this to be the Holy Spirit. Another spirit of God, having the power of God.

    Jesus says that His Father gave to him all of heaven and earth etc, thus he becomes after the resurrection, the embodiment again of the power of God, not because he is God, but because God the Father bestowed on him the fullness of His power in that respect.

    There is no doubt that Jesus does not sit on the right hand of Jesus, but at the right hand of God the Father. They are separate yes in a sense but the spirit of God that is in Him also is so powerful as to be as God... something like that.

    In that, God the father gave Jesus to us, His only begotten son, to make intercession for us to God. He is not fully fully God, He is the only one that can however meet God for us, we ourselves are not deemed worthy. Thus cometh the savior and Jesus is. You can cry out to God endlessly for years without answer, believe me I know. But call upon Jesus and that begins to change. Quickly too. God wants you to work with Jesus, not Himself. It's just the way it is. But it's for sure.

    In so far as 'the trinity' per se, I do believe that the word itself is a convention of the Catholic church again, and can probably be disregarded without any danger. But the persons it describes are for sure... the Holy Spirit being the spirit of God that Jesus leaves with us upon salvation, and remaining in our lives as, again, the spirit of God.

    All in all it's too awesome for me... but i know for sure He's real, and just like like the writer above, I know the Holy Spirit and how wonderful He is.

    There must be an awful lot to the Holy Spirit if God can spread so much of Him among us... maybe that's what Jesus says when He says 'this is my body, which is broken for you..." and the wine... 'this is my blood..' which Jesus is called the new wine and was a man and did shed blood... just kind of guessing there but I have thought many years about it and have only come thus far.

    Either way, He is awesome and to me, Yes Jesus is God, even though there be God the Father as well... but Jesus is here as His representative and in that we look to him as we would to our Father and I do believe He expects as much.

    Not hard to figure out after you meet him... when the questions will pretty much cease as well.. just basking in His glory is answer enough... then you'll know. But only then.

    Just ask for Jesus to teach you, He will. And by knowing Jesus, you will, know God.
     
  16. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Excellent post, Live4Jesus! :)
    Yes, He can. In one sense, He was "the begotten Son of God"---in the sense that He was born of Mary. But He had no beginning, always existed; Jesus is the CREATOR. So in a second sensse, His Humanity was only APPEARANCE---see Philip2:8 (context). Oh Jesus was FULLY HUMAN, but was made LIKE the Son of God (Heb7:3).

    You have a dual nature---you are both flesh, and spirit. Jesus also was flesh, and Spirit---but His Spirit was DIVINE.

    One God, existing in three separate persons. Picture a glass of icewater---water, ice, vapor; yet the ice becomes water becomes vapor, and the Father cannot become the Son cannot become the Spirit.

    One "ENTITY", three persons who absolutely can talk to each other...

    :)
     
  17. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian
    Live4Jesus,

    You wrote:
     
  18. Joj

    Joj New Member

    55
    +0
    Non-Denom
    "If Jesus is not fully fully God, then he's not God. He would have been partially God. But that would have ment more than one God."

    John 1:18. No man hath seen God at any time........Jesus hath declared Him.

    While I believe Jesus was God, He couldn't have been fully God, men saw Him (Jesus). Jesus had all of Gods attributes though in that He was rightous and Holy as only God is.

    We mortals just can't fully grasp His ways, they are way beyond our comprehention.

    His.......Joj
     
  19. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian
    You say that Jesus had all of God's attributes. God’s natural attributes are: infinity, eternity and immortality, immutability, omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence.

    God is infinite. He has no limitations or imperfections. Man is limited by relations of time and space. He has mental and physical limitations and imperfections. Man is finite; God is infinite. God’s powers are unlimited. He has universal and perfect relations with all other existence.
    God is unsearchable. Finite man cannot comprehend the fullness of the infinite God. Man can know God and much about God, but he cannot know everything there is to know about God in all details of His total perfections. Man can know God because He has revealed Himself to man. The infinite God is unsearchable. (Job 11: 7; Psalm 145:3; Isaiah 40:28; Rom. 11:33-36.)

    Jesus was a finite man. He had limitations and imperfections, he was limited by time and space. He had mental and physical limitations.

    God is eternal. There never was a time when God did not exist. He always was, always is, and always will be. Eternity is infinite time.
    Eternity extends in both directions. It is just as far backward into eternity as it is forward into eternity. For the believer, eternal life has a beginning but will have no ending. God, however, not only will live forever in the future, but also has lived forever in the past.

    God is the source of all life. He derived existence from no one; He possesses life within Himself. Jesus, on the other hand, received life from God. If it were not for God, Jesus never would have existed. Jesus was begotten of the Father. His life was derived from God. The power of God caused Mary to conceive and bring forth a son. If it were not for the holy power of God, Jesus never would have been born

    Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
    5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

    God is immortal. He is not subject to death. That which is immortal is deathless, imperishable, incorruptible, indestructible, and indissoluble. It never fades, never dies, and never ends. It does not depreciate, decay, or corrode. It results in unending existence; it is exempt from death.

    1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King immortal
    Romans 1:23 The uncorruptible God
    I Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality

    The fact that God is eternal refers to His endless duration of existence. The fact that God is immortal refers to the type of physical nature He has that enables Him to have that eternal existence. God’s eternity and immortality are linked together.

    God always has been immortal and always will be immortal. It is impossible for God to die. Jesus, on the other hand, was born mortal. He died. Jesus had the characteristics of mortal man. He experienced hunger (Matt. 4:2), thirst (John 19:28), weariness (John 4:6), temptation (Matt. 4:1), and suffering (Luke 24:46). Jesus died (John 19:33; 1 Cor. 15:3). God cannot die; Jesus died.

    Jesus became immortal when God raised Him from the grave. Jesus received immortality from God. Jesus can never die again. (Rom. 6: 9.) When Jesus comes, all true believers will be made immortal like him. (1 Cor. 15:52, 53; Phil. 3:20, 21.)

    God is unchangeable. What He now is He always has been and always will be. God cannot change for the better because He is already best. He cannot change for the worse because He thereby would cease to be perfect. Infinite perfection is unchangeable.

    Psalm 102:26, 27 Earth changes, God is the same
    Malachi 3:6 I am the Lord, I change not
    James 1: 17 No variableness
    Hebrews 6:17, 18 Immutability of His counsel
    Exodus 3:14 Always in present tense

    All created things are subject to change and deterioration, but God remains always the same. Stars burn out, mountains wear away, buildings crumble; plants whither, flowers fade, animals die; metal rusts, food decays, machinery wears out. Mankind changes, suffers, and dies. In our changing universe, only God is unchangeable.

    As we all know, Jesus was born a baby, and grew into a man. During that time, his knowledge increased as well. When he was born, he knew just as much as you or I did when we were born.

    God is perfect in knowledge. God’s mind is perfect. His knowledge is infinite, eternal, and complete.

    Job 37:16 Perfect in knowledge
    Psalm 147:5 His understanding is infinite
    Acts 15:18 All His works from beginning
    1 John 3: 20 God knoweth all things
    Hebrews 4: 13 All things opened unto His eyes
    Psalm 139: 1-6, 23 Hast searched me and known me
    Isaiah 40:13, 14, 28 Who hath taught Him?
    Romans 11: 33, 34 O the depths of the riches

    Jesus doesn't know everything. Only the God knows the time of Jesus' return.

    God is everywhere present. Wherever we are we can say, “God is here!” He is our nearest environment. One is no nearer to the presence of God on a mountain than he is in a cavern. Nearness to God is not a matter of geography. No point is nearer to God’s presence than any other point. One needs not shout across the empty miles to an absent God. God is here; He can hear your faintest whisper.

    Psalm 139: 7-12 Whither flee from thy presence
    Jeremiah 23:23, 24 His presence fills heaven, earth
    Acts 17: 24-28 Not far from every one of us
    Psalm 23: 4 Thou art with me
    1 Kings 8: 27 Heaven cannot contain thee

    God is not everywhere present in the same sense. God is in heaven, His dwelling place (1 Kings 8:30); Christ is in heaven at God’s right hand (Eph. 1: 20); God’s throne is in heaven (Rev. 21:2; Isa. 66:1). Heaven is a real place. Although God is in heaven, through His power and presence He is everywhere present and acting.

    Was Jesus everywhere? No. Just like you and I, he was limited by time and space.

    God is all powerful. He is almighty. His power is infinite. There is nothing that He cannot do. With Him all things are possible.

    Revelation 19:6 The Lord God omnipotent
    Revelation 21: 22 The Lord God Almighty
    Job 42:2 Thou canst do everything
    Genesis 18: 14 Is anything too hard for the Lord
    Luke 1:37 With God nothing impossible
    Matthew 19:26 All things are possible
    Genesis 17:1 I am the Almighty God

    The power of God is designated in the Bible as God’s Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the impersonal power of God. The Bible uses the words power and spirit interchangeably. Every work that God does is performed through His power or Spirit.

    God’s power originates within Himself. Through His power God performs all His works. Jesus, on the other hand, was not omnipotent. The power Christ exercised in performing miracles was received from God. He said, “The Son can do nothing of himself” (John 5:19). The power which Christ uses to accomplish His work in the church today and which He will use in ruling the earth in His future kingdom has been received from God. God’s power originated within Himself; Jesus received power from God.

    John 5:19 Son can do nothing of himself
    John 5:30 Of mine own self do nothing
    John 8:28 I do nothing of myself
    John 14:10 He doeth the works

    So did Jesus have all of God's attributes? It sure doesn't look like it.
     
  20. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    I missed this. :eek:

    Jesus is FULLY FULLY God. "In Him the fullness of the Godhead dwells IN BODILY FORM." Col2:9.

    Does Jesus have all the attributes of God? You say "He was finite flesh"---yes, He was; but He was BOTH---finite flesh, infinite Spirit. Did Jesus have a beginning? NO. Jesus is the "WORD" in John1:1. Not only does the text say, "and GOD was the WORD---and the Word flesh became, and tabernacled among us." --- it also says, "through Him all things were made, and APART from Him NOTHING was made that WAS MADE..."

    Nothing made, was made apart from Jesus---so if Jesus was CREATED, who made Jesus???
     
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