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trinity idea
- Thread starter Truth light
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originally posted by Truth light
I didn't ask you that. Just answer what I asked:
Neither did Christianity.
This is not the Trinity; so, you argue other than orthodoxy. Analogies are not perfect and cannot describe the Trinity correctly. One must read for themselves if they want to better understand the concept. The simple concept is this: 1) The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all shown to be divine, 2) Each person is distinct from the other, 3) The divine persons are not persons as humans are, 4) Each person is eternal, and 5) All 3 persons are coequal and indivisible.
By reading the NT, all of these things can be seen as characteristics of each person of the Trinity. As a consequence of seeing these characteristics and others, the concept of Trinity was coined where these characteristics were formulated into one basic teaching.
But, there are. Don't believe what you hear.
That was not a point I was making. I was simple trying to get you to think beyond the point that you are at right now. I said this: For example, did Abraham know about the Kosher food laws of the Jews? Who kept that a secret?
Now answer the question so that you can come to see my point. My point is that revelation inherently adds new understanding to old principles or introduces new principles. It is never stagnant, unless it has come to an end.
It is ironic that you state the very thing that you are refuting. :o Perhaps you can better understand the concept of Trinity if you are willing to assert this little nugget of truth.Now, what do you have against God revealing the Trinity to people of a late time (NT) and not in the OT? I do know that if the shoe was on the other foot, you would be saying that Allah knows best.
Hint: the Trinity will never make sense if one does not at least try to see it in context of the scripture that it was revealed in.
Actually christians are fed the idea that the Trinity is possible because their church says so.
God never asked them to worship trinity 
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I see that you are attacking something that you don't even understand. Now if I did this with Islam, you would be quite angry by now, or least telling me that I don't know Islam. Perhaps you should take a step back and try to learn something other than what your religion falsely understands about Christianity. Can I get a hand shake from you on that one?
Is it acceptable for you to accept anonymous books as revelation ?
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why was it only discovered by christians ?
ALL NATIONS BEFORE AND AFTER THEM DON'T ACCEPT IT
OT didn't ever mentioned it
such a serious beleif is easy to kept secret ?!
do you know ?
N,B
indians have nothing to do with this
The concept of the Trinity is Biblical. There are hints of it in the OT, which, of course, orthodox Jews do not accept.
It was not "discovered by Christians."
Keep in mind that almost all of the New Testament was written by Jews, followers of the Messiah, Jesus.
The Biblical basis for the concept of the Trinity can be reviewed in this article:
Blue Letter Bible - Commentaries - Robert Bowman - The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity
The fact that the Holy Spirit is a person:
The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, has a will, a mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 5:26).
Some false teaching religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., say that the Holy Spirit is nothing more than a force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is false. If the Holy Spirit were merely a force, then He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11), a self, (Jn 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).
The truth is there are seventy two (72) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are within the Trinity.
Names of the Spirit
1. God -Acts 5:3-4
2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14
Attributes of (9)
7. Eternal -Heb. 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:710
10. Distinct Will from the father and the son 1 Cor. 12:11
11. Loves - Rom. 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; 13:2
13. Distinct Mind from the father and the son Rom 8:27
14. Distinct Self from the father and the son John 16:13
15. Alive John 14:17
Symbols of (3)
16. Dove - Matt. 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts 2:3
Sins Against (6)
19. Blasphemy - Matt. 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
21. Insult - Heb. 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
23. Grieved - Eph. 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thess. 5:19
Power in Christ's Life (6)
25. Conceived of - Matt. 1:18,20
26. Baptism - Matt. 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Rom. 8:11
The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)
1 Access to God - Eph. 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Rom. 8:15-16; Gal. 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Pet. 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:232-34; 1 Cor. 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thess. 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
9 Comforts - Act 9:31
10 Communion with believers 2 Cor 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Gen. 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thess. 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers Phil 2:1
17 Fills - Acts 2:4; 4:29-31; 5:18-20; 9:17
18 Forbids action - Ac 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Cor. 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Rom. 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Rom. 8:9-14; Gal. 4:6
24 Inspires prayer - Eph. 6:18; Jude 20
25 Intercedes -Rom. 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Cor. 2:1,14; Eph. 1:17
27 Leads - Rom. 8:14
28 Liberates - Rom. 8:2
29 Molds Character - Gal. 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Gal. 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Rom. 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals Luk 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Rom. 15:16
35 Seals - Eph. 1:1314; 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
37 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
38 Strengthens - Eph. 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4;1 Cor. 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Rom. 8:2-4; Gal. 4:6
41 Warns Acts 20:23
42 Worship helper - Phil. 3:3.
Analysis by Oldshepherd
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Thanks for this copied post.
But why do you think those jews only who suddenly understood that trinity although Jesus didn't noticed that hints
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Thanks for this copied post.
But why do you think those jews only who suddenly understood that trinity although Jesus didn't noticed that hints
You're welcome.
Jesus did notice the hints. Notice Jesus indicated that the Holy Spirit is a "person" in the Gospel of John.
Notice that Jesus spoke of the Father.
Notice that Jesus called Himself the Son.
It is enough for me to know there is only one God, one Being and that His Word incarnated Jesus of Nazareth and that God's Holy Spirit is active in the world.
I have a Jewish friend and he understands what I am saying and does not accuse me of believing in three Gods like orthodox Jews and Muslims do.
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razeontherock
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Would you like to count how many rule violations you made here?
Telling us to "revise the Bible" in this manner is THE most offensive thing you could possibly do. Do refrain.
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razeontherock
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To anyone legitimately wanting to try to understand the Christian Trinity, read through this link:
On the Incarnation
Sincere questions are most welcome, as always. Blaspheming my Lord has gotten REALLY old here lately ... do refrain.
On the Incarnation
Sincere questions are most welcome, as always. Blaspheming my Lord has gotten REALLY old here lately ... do refrain.
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I think that no christian said who is the first person who discovered that Jesus and the Holy spirit need to be worshipped innovating the so called trinity
innovating the so called trinity
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I think that no christian said who is the first person who discovered that Jesus and the Holy spirit need to be worshipped
No need to, since God's Word and God's Spirit are all God and only one Being and we worship the one God and the one Being.
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God's Word, God's Spirit and God creatures all are not God himself, the eternal ONE that all prophets and beleivers throughout the history worshipped him alone
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God's Word, God's Spirit and God creatures all are not God himself, the eternal ONE that all prophets and beleivers throughout the history worshipped him alone
What proceeds from God IS God and God's Word and God's Spirit proceeds from Him.
Trinitarian Christians worship God alone.
Everyone knows that God's creatures are not God!
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what "procceeds" mean ?
and unitarians ?
Everyone knows that God's creatures are not God![/quote]
Actually, not everyone
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what "procceeds" mean ?
When your Allah says "Be" and things are created, his word proceeds from your Allah. Muslims do not believe Allah's "word" is another god besides Allah.
and unitarians ?
There are some sects of Christianity who are not considered Christians. JW's and Mormons to name two.
Actually, not everyone
[/QUOTE]The vast majority of Christians are Trinitarians.
Romans 1:25
For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
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I think that no christian said who is the first person who discovered that Jesus and the Holy spirit need to be worshipped
No one discovered that either needed to be worshiped no more than a Muslim discovered that Allah needed to be worshiped. It is just silly to see it that way.
Your problem is always going to be one of objectivity. Your religious teachings are preventing you from seeing a simple observation that can be made by reading through the NT. Step away from your overly bias position and try to see things from the Biblical perspective. Then, you can better understand our logic.
1) We see the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as separate entities. We call these entities persons because this is the closest thing that we can compare them to in terms of language. If there was a better word, we could use it. Moreover, person is not used in the same way as we would use it to describe you or me. I have explained this elsewhere.
2) We see the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as being divine. Their divine attributes are illustrated in various verses.
3) We see the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as being indivisible. Consequently, there are no three gods--just one.
4) God is one. This is explicitly stated in both the OT and NT.
5) All three persons are one because of the first 4 observations--especially 3 and 4. They are of the same substance. The have the same will and purpose.
6) We see references to God's oneness and plurality in the OT.
7) We see manifestations of God in the OT as three individuals, as men, or as a man in a few places in the OT. We believe that these instances point to prophetic unveiling of the Trinity, though not explicit.
There are other things to mention, but I think that these things are sufficient to give you the understanding of what we see when reading the Bible. When we put all of these things together, we see what we call a Triune God. It is not made up; rather, it is observed from reading scripture. Therefore, it is not confusing to someone who is objective. I would say that most of the objections to the Trinity are from people who don't want to believe that God can exist in that manner. It is not the text that is the problem; it's the person's perspective that is the issue. The issue usually boils down to these statements: God can't do that or God wouldn't do that--either of which is supported by the text.
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originally posted by Truth light
It means to come forth from; to originate from; to come out of. When you talk, words proceed from your mouth and thoughts proceed from your mind. The come from your being, and they belong to your being.
Unitarians were never considered orthodox. The earliest traces of Unitarianism come from the 16th century--far from the origins of Christianity.
The Christian claim is not this. Jesus preexisted as the Word/Logos before taking upon flesh (incarnation); so, He was not created. Incarnate and create are not the same. Incarnation of Jesus simply places a bodily form to what was already existing. Creating is to make something that didn't exist to come into existence, such as in the case when God brought Adam into existence or you and me.
what "procceeds" mean ?
It means to come forth from; to originate from; to come out of. When you talk, words proceed from your mouth and thoughts proceed from your mind. The come from your being, and they belong to your being.
and unitarians ?
Unitarians were never considered orthodox. The earliest traces of Unitarianism come from the 16th century--far from the origins of Christianity.
The Christian claim is not this. Jesus preexisted as the Word/Logos before taking upon flesh (incarnation); so, He was not created. Incarnate and create are not the same. Incarnation of Jesus simply places a bodily form to what was already existing. Creating is to make something that didn't exist to come into existence, such as in the case when God brought Adam into existence or you and me.
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originally posted by GeorgeTwo
This can easily lead into a topic of its own. Perhaps you could open another thread where we can discuss and ask Muslims their opinion on it and Allah's spirit. I don't think that many Muslims ponder on the consequences of Allah's word and spirit and its role in the Qu'ran. I will gladly join you in discussion if you decide to do it.
This can easily lead into a topic of its own. Perhaps you could open another thread where we can discuss and ask Muslims their opinion on it and Allah's spirit. I don't think that many Muslims ponder on the consequences of Allah's word and spirit and its role in the Qu'ran. I will gladly join you in discussion if you decide to do it.
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That's interesting, because I teach Survey of the Old Testament I & II (an overview of the Old Testament) and we talk about the Trinity in the Old Testament all the time.
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razeontherock
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I think that no christian said who is the first person who discovered that Jesus and the Holy spirit need to be worshipped
If you could turn that into actual English maybe you could also read the NT and see what it plainly states, which would blow your ideas clear out of the water
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ToHoldNothing
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"Sects of Christianity not considered Christians" is a contradiction of expression. If they are a sect of Christianity by name, they are Christians by a general definition, even if they aren't considered orthodox or catholic in the sense of being correct or doctrinally sound
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