trinity idea

[semper_virens]

Actually, trinity for non-christians makes no sense.
For christians, it's beyond their comprehention.

jesus himself didn't know that word

Is Allah comprehensible? Do you know and understand him? Nope, that is a part of Islamic dogma, God is beyond comprehension according to Islam. Yet you apply a double standard by saying because you can't understand the Trinity then it must not be true...

 

[razeontherock]

If you're going to pull the "no true scotsman" fallacy on me as to my understanding of Christians

That simply doesn't apply to Christianity. "They are not all Israel that are of Israel." (Romans 9:6) That actually means something, too.

Your beliefs about faith, sin, etc, are your own

My "beliefs" are 100% pure Bible:

Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin"

Simple enough for a child to understand. Which is still your problem



You have yet to define faith or sin in any significant or objective sense, considering these ideas are supposed to be somewhat self evident[/QUOTE]

Perfectly:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1) why not take the plunge and apply yourself to finding out what it's talking about? There's a lot of data to chew through, and that chapter exists to point you in the right direction to encounter it. There's even a few threads currently running that expose some of the not-so-obvious things.

 

[peaceful soul]

The Trinity idea Christians have, is inspired from Hinduism.

I'd lay better odds on the Egyptians.

And even better odds on the Romans.

Triads of deities were not uncommon in the region. One doesn't have to go all the way to India.


eudaimonia,

Mark

For both of you, unless you show causality, there is no connection to make, unless, of course, it is a superficial one.

 

[razeontherock]

I'm looking at those first 2 or 3 generations of Jewish followers of Jesus. As you know, the NT Bible did not even exist at the time. That took another 375 years to make happen.

Nonsense. It was all written before 100 AD, and most of it before 70 AD. The books accepted now were never much in dispute except for Rev. The only difference is any one locale wouldn't have had all the books - but they did have the Apostles. A trade I'd make any day!

Oral tradition is mostly how Paul learned about Jesus.

Absolutely FALSE! Have you even read the NT?!? Please try it sometime, and scratch this idea until you do. You don't need to get very far before you come across the relevant parts. It like, a really BIG deal.

But by the writings that have bubbled to the surfaced we can now see that there was a wide variety of beliefs about Jesus in those ancient times.

This is true. You have what the Apostles taught, and - - - everything else.
Which is what the "Canon" is all about. Deuterocanonical works do have merit, but the contrast vs Scripture is like night and day. there is no doubt, nor is there this controversy you fabricate.

 

[razeontherock]

OK, so uh how does that explain who purposefully changed the text because they wanted to undermine something else?

Who are the people who did that, what did they seek to undermine, and how do we know their motivations for their actions?

Thanks.

This is real simple. They want to prove Jesus is not the Christ. the people involved were primarily from 33 AD to 325 AD. I do bvelieve the Ecumenical councils muffed some stuff up, in an effort to move int he opposite direction. but there was TOTAL AGREEMENT on both the Person and Divinity of Christ.


Those who were wrong were correctly brushed aside as irrelevant on the topic. And yes, it ALL hinges on the resurrection.

when you say you're "not a Trinitarian," I have to question what your understanding of the term is? Methinks that whatever it is, I'd find myself being one of those that doesn't believe it, too.

 

[razeontherock]

I'm sorry, that strikes me as a ridicules statement. And I start with the experimental aspect of the Trinity as an example for why. When one stops and open their heart to each aspect of the Trinity and "experiences" each part of God, that moment becomes an awareness of experience. That heart opened experience is way beyond faith.

No, that's not "beyond Faith," the way the Bible uses the term. Neither is your next example.

IOW, strawman argument.

 

[razeontherock]

Actually, trinity for non-christians makes no sense.

That's the first respectably true thing I've seen you post lately. Maybe ever.

Jesus himself didn't know that word

NEWSFLASH: words are used to convey concepts. You might ponder how that's applicable in this instance.

 

[razeontherock]

The Old Testament Trinity​

Genesis 18:1-2: 1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

The Trinity before even the New Testament

Thank you! Leave it to an EO to "get all Biblical!"

 

[peaceful soul]

originally posted by razeontherock

....The problem here is the stubborn refusal by (some) Muslims to even try to understand what is meant by Trinity, instead imposing their own style of thinking onto ideas where that simply does NOT fit. Alittle further clarification comes by way of recognizing the Trinity never intended to replace any other revelation of G-d, it only adds one more. For example, after the doctrine of the Trinity had been revealed to it's fullest extent,
we again see "the 7 Spirits of G-d" before the Throne.

Well stated, razeontherock. Personally, I don't see Muslims even trying honestly. They are fed the idea that the Trinity is impossible because their religion says so. From that point forward, their minds can only grasp the idea that the Trinity is impossible; thus, circular reasoning. Any attempt on our part is futile as long as they continue to complete the circle of their logic. What we must do is to get them to think outside of their a priori. One way to do that is to get them to relate to similar principles in their own religion. Sometimes that works well.

It is perfectly normal that these same Truths appear in various cultures and lands.

I wouldn't go that far. I think that we need to acknowledge that personal experiences can lead non Christians to understand certain truths or at least get concepts of the Christian truths, but non of those other religions have the completeness of those truths and all of the truths bundled together and presented as Christ does to us. I wouldn't want to let non Christians, especially, get the idea that they have part of the truth and therefore are OK with where they are at. Even if they do see some aspect of truth, they don't have the Spirit of God to lead them to what is true of Christ. In some cases, that little nugget of truth can plant a seed whereby the Holy Spirit can work on them and bring them to the full knowledge of Truth--Jesus.

 

[peaceful soul]

The Christian church. Without Jesus, any concept of the Son would have gone over the head of anyone. With Jesus, or the Son incarnate, we can see that the personas of the Father and Son are seperate. Who knows? Perhaps God may reveal Himself in many more forms in future- He is God, after all, and can appear in as many forms as possible- but for now, he has revealed Himself to be in three forms.

Whatever God reveals has to be consistent with His revealed nature and what He has already revealed to us in scripture. Remember that Jesus was the end of the line as far as God has said. Only the end times is to come; so, I doubt that we are going to see anything inconsistent with what we already have. Had God said that there will be revelation continuing after Jesus, then perhaps, the sky could be the limit.

 

[yusufevans]

Personally, I don't see Muslims even trying honestly. They are fed the idea that the Trinity is impossible because their religion says so. From that point forward, their minds can only grasp the idea that the Trinity is impossible; thus, circular reasoning.

Don't allot of Christians act like that towards Muslims, when they speak about Allah? Don't you guys continously say they are worshipping a false God?

One way to do that is to get them to relate to similar principles in their own religion. Sometimes that works well.

How could you relate the trinity concept in Islam, particularly when there is no one equal to God?

 

[peaceful soul]

originally posted by Truth light

originally posted by Truth light

I didn't ask you that. Just answer what I asked:

As already stated, it was revealed. Didn't Islam reveal certain things too? Did Mohammad and his followers know everything that the Islam revealed about Allah already?

Islam didn't invented a partners with the creator

Neither did Christianity.

natural consequence ?!
God to be one then 3=1 is a natural consequence

This is not the Trinity; so, you argue other than orthodoxy. Analogies are not perfect and cannot describe the Trinity correctly. One must read for themselves if they want to better understand the concept. The simple concept is this: 1) The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all shown to be divine, 2) Each person is distinct from the other, 3) The divine persons are not persons as humans are, 4) Each person is eternal, and 5) All 3 persons are coequal and indivisible.

By reading the NT, all of these things can be seen as characteristics of each person of the Trinity. As a consequence of seeing these characteristics and others, the concept of Trinity was coined where these characteristics were formulated into one basic teaching.

No even one (don't beleive all what you hear )

But, there are. Don't believe what you hear.

The law change with prophets but God to be one don't

That was not a point I was making. I was simple trying to get you to think beyond the point that you are at right now. I said this: For example, did Abraham know about the Kosher food laws of the Jews? Who kept that a secret?

Now answer the question so that you can come to see my point. My point is that revelation inherently adds new understanding to old principles or introduces new principles. It is never stagnant, unless it has come to an end.

Nether did Muslims or any other religion or group of people. It's God prerogative to reveal and institute as He sees fit.

It is ironic that you state the very thing that you are refuting. :o Perhaps you can better understand the concept of Trinity if you are willing to assert this little nugget of truth. Now, what do you have against God revealing the Trinity to people of a late time (NT) and not in the OT? I do know that if the shoe was on the other foot, you would be saying that Allah knows best.

Hint: the Trinity will never make sense if one does not at least try to see it in context of the scripture that it was revealed in.

 

[peaceful soul]

Talking as if anonymous Gospel writers knew Jesus personally

I see that you are attacking something that you don't even understand. Now if I did this with Islam, you would be quite angry by now, or least telling me that I don't know Islam. Perhaps you should take a step back and try to learn something other than what your religion falsely understands about Christianity. Can I get a hand shake from you on that one?

 

[peaceful soul]

originally posted by yusufevans

Don't allot of Christians act like that towards Muslims, when they speak about Allah? Don't you guys continously say they are worshipping a false God?

Am I now suppose to go on the defensive? Even is so, what does that have to do with what I said. The discussion is about a Muslims who states that the Trinity is something made up and can't be understood; therefore, it is impossible to defend in Christianity.

Surely some, Christians do practice this, but how is that going to fix the problem with this Muslim?

Most of us Christians do say that they Worship a different God, but what does that have to do with this particular Muslim and his assertion? I get the feeling that discussing Islam is somehow evil, especially when there is something negative involved, even if it may be true. Can we get pass all of the PC stuff and deal with this OP? Do I really have to justify my religion before I can ask questions or get answers? Is that really necessary?

How could you relate the trinity concept in Islam, particularly when there is no one equal to God?

This is what I stated:

One way to do that is to get them to relate to similar principles in their own religion. Sometimes that works well.

I didn't say that they had to see a Trinitarian concept within Islam; however, that would not be a bad idea. I only said that there are similar problems in Islam that are are difficult to understand and/or explain, but yet a Muslim will make the same claims that I am making about how the Trinity can be understood with some study time while looking at the context of certain passages. Those parallels can and often do stimulate Muslims and cause them to go outside of their circular position and see how I may see their objections. Is that clear now? If not, I can give an example.

 

[razeontherock]

In some cases, that little nugget of truth can plant a seed whereby the Holy Spirit can work on them and bring them to the full knowledge of Truth--Jesus.

Yes, this is what I was getting at! And I happen to think G-d is *pretty good* at getting people to "haply feel after Him."

 

[razeontherock]

Don't allot of Christians act like that towards Muslims, when they speak about Allah? Don't you guys continously say they are worshipping a false God?

I think there are both Muslims who seek G-d, and have at least some contact with Him, just like there are some professing christians who miss the point completely, and their conception of Trinity isn't even a blip on that radar screen.

How could you relate the trinity concept in Islam, particularly when there is no one equal to God?

Simple. Christianity teaches that there is none like G-d. How many Names does Islam have for G-d? 3 shouldn't be such a stretch

 

[peaceful soul]

Yes, this is what I was getting at! And I happen to think G-d is *pretty good* at getting people to "haply feel after Him."

OK. Cool, then. I better understand you now.

 

[Truth light]

Tis a shame and I feel sorry for these posters who limit the ability of God.

In the beginning, it is clear, to me anyway, that the Lord, God All Mighty is capable of manifesting himself in any form or combination He desires to reveal Himself to the world.

Tis a shame that there are those that limit His ability to that of a mortal.

Tis a shame and I feel sorry for these posters who say God keep secret of salvation from all people till after jesus ascent.​

Capable of anything not contradict his being God​

So Jesus is human​

​

Did any human saw God ? Revise your book​

 

[Truth light]

The Old Testament Trinity​

Genesis 18:1-2: 1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

The Trinity before even the New Testament

So, those men were 1 God

 

[Truth light]

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit don't become anything. God "IS". Never was there a time when they weren't as they are. You represent it as if 3 things merged at some point into one thing or that they are bridged at one central object of commonality. That never happened. God is: YHWH--"I AM WHO I AM".

The Trinity is three divine persons of one substance/essence, indivisible, co eternal, and coequal.

Persons of the Trinity posses the following characteristics:

1) an infinite spiritual being
2) a non material existence
3) mind, but a divine one--more complex
4) emotions, but not like ours, although similar
5) love, but in a more complex and profound way that human beings.
6) can communicate, but not with physical parameters such as ears, mouth, and hands
7) has awareness, but unlike mine
8) has a will, but unlike mine
9) has intellect, but more complex and profound than human persons
10) can speak and be spoken to.
11) eternal--uncreated

From the above characteristics, one can begin to understand why we are made in God's image; for, we are similar to Him in some ways. The list above are not exhaustive, but will suffice for the sake of discussion.

Christ didn't need a body to be a person. He existed as a person (divinity) from eternity and later took on flesh (human person). As a result, Jesus took on an additional nature (human) along with his already eternal nature as the divine Son of God. These two natures coexist in what is called a hypostatic union--totally separate, but not separate.

A human person is:

1) a body--material
2) a creature
3) bounded or limited to space
4) not as complex and as profound as a divine person of God.
5) non eternal

The point to this entire descriptive analysis is to help everyone to understand how the concept of Trinity applies to the Bible. I hope this helps.

God said in ALL scriptures he is one so simple. Any “open minded “ child can understand​