Trinity Doctrines

[imperfectchristian]

Is that not a title that Scriptures give to Him? Who am I to argue with God's word?

So Jesus is the Everlasting Father and you don't see that as complicating the nice and neat trinitarian doctrine?

On the issue of two witnesses...you are applying man's wisdom and trying to subject God to it. They complained that Jesus was a law breaker, but His answer was that He was the Lord of the law.

What is my point? God can and does do whatever He wants and He doesn't consult us to make sure it makes sense ahead time...I mean honestly...who expected Emanuel to be born in a lowly manger to a common woman?

I'm not saying I disgree with you, but I personally don't believe it is something that should be so dogmatically divisive.

I worship in oneness churches just as easy as I do in trinitarian churches.

It is a non-issue in my opinion. Is one right and the other wrong? Pehaps, but I do not believe it really matters to God. What God is concerned with is the sincerity of the heart.

 

[New_Wineskin]

So Jesus is the Everlasting Father and you don't see that as complicating the nice and neat trinitarian doctrine?

Right . Calling Jesus "Father" looks like a Oneness idea and not Trinitarian . It eliminates the seperation of the two that the Trinitarians attempt to maintain to keep from being Oneness .

 

[Supplanter]

hm . . .

*searches for a scripture*

 

[Supplanter]

I have no idea where it is anymore, but isn't there a Scripture that talks about after everything has been fulfilled that all things will become one, even Christ will be completely reconciled with the Father, no longer separate in form. . .sort of a total oneness. I can't find the scripture and most of you are probably thinking I am crazy about now, but there is something about that, but I need to see the scripture to be sure. Anybody know what I am talking about?

 

[millerrod2]

Why do you believe in the Trinity? It's concept is rather sketchy in scripture.

not sketchy at all more like it fulfills all scripture.
scripture says: God is Love, Holy Spirit is Love in the Spirit, Christ is Love in the flesh, ALL scripture is fulfilled in Love, Love is The Father Love is the Son and Love is the Holy Spirit the three are one, the one is Love

 

[FreeinChrist]

Just a reminder folks

CF supports the following as a statement of faith:


The Nicene Creed (with scriptural references)

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)v
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)




Three Persons - ONE essense. That is not 3 different Gods (tritheism), or one God that takes on the various roles (modalism).

 

[FreeinChrist]

I believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost but I don't use the term trinity. It makes it seem as if we're saying there are three gods as opposed to the One who has revealed Himself in three ways. That said, here's stuff from the Bible and historical documents that might help you better understand the godhead:

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." I Timothy 3:16
He could be in all these places at once fulfilling all these roles because He is omnipresent. This doesn't mean there are three Gods, it means God fulfills three roles.

That is modalism.

I've had a literal trinitarian tell me once that she believed when she got to heaven she would see three gods--Jesus sitting next to the Father and the Holy Ghost kinda just flying around. If it's true they are three entities, then how does a literal trinitarian translate this verse:
Matthew 1:18- "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."

That person is not a "literal Trinitarian" - that person is a Tritheist

 

[FreeinChrist]

So Jesus is the Everlasting Father and you don't see that as complicating the nice and neat trinitarian doctrine?

As a Trinitarian - and one who supports the Statement of Faith of this site, no, it does not complicate Trinitarian beliefs.

It supports that fact that Jesus is God Incarnate, is one essense with the Father, yet unlike the Father, He was born of the Virgin Mary.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Why do you believe in the Trinity? It's concept is rather sketchy in scripture.

I am leery of posting more here but am concerned about this thread and some of the responses are making me cringe. I find support in scripture for the Trinity - it is seen in the Tabernacle that was patterned after the Holy Tablenacle in heaven.

As you enter the Holy of Holies, directly ahead is the mercy seat of God- for God the Father. The fiery cloud hovered over that seat. To the right is the table of shewbread - Jesus is the bread of life. To the other side was the 7 candled lamp representing the 7 fold Spirit. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Genesis 1 - In the beginning, God (Elohim which yes, is plural) created the heaven and the earth
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said...

In John 1 and several other spots, we learn that it is Christ, Logos, the Word, who created the heavens and earth - so God spoke, Jesus created, Spirit was there...


This creed explains the Trinity better and may clear up some of the confusion I am seeing here:
The Athanasian Creed

 

[BenAdam]

I am leery of posting more here but am concerned about this thread and some of the responses are making me cringe. I find support in scripture for the Trinity - it is seen in the Tabernacle that was patterned after the Holy Tablenacle in heaven.

First, the thread was to challenge people to see how they really believe. We can say the Bible teaches a Triune God but how many of us really have a foundation for that? I am pleased that many people have scriptural support for their viewpoints.

Second, I agree that the pattern given to Moses is full of the concept, but we must remember that it is hidden in type and shadow. The Ark of the Covenant and the Ark of Noah are 2 wonderful types of God and Christ (going back to multiple meanings in scripture but that is another thread).

As you enter the Holy of Holies, directly ahead is the mercy seat of God- for God the Father. The fiery cloud hovered over that seat. To the right is the table of shewbread - Jesus is the bread of life. To the other side was the 7 candled lamp representing the 7 fold Spirit. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Genesis 1 - In the beginning, God (Elohim which yes, is plural) created the heaven and the earth
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said...

In John 1 and several other spots, we learn that it is Christ, Logos, the Word, who created the heavens and earth - so God spoke, Jesus created, Spirit was there...

Excellent choices of scripture.

This creed explains the Trinity better and may clear up some of the confusion I am seeing here:
The Athanasian Creed

For ease of others here I am pasting the creed:

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith.
2. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the Catholic Faith is this:
   That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity,
4. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance [SIZE=-1][Essence][/SIZE].
5. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one, the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.
8. The Father uncreate [SIZE=-1][uncreated][/SIZE], the Son uncreate [SIZE=-1][uncreated][/SIZE], and the Holy Ghost uncreate [SIZE=-1][uncreated][/SIZE].
9. The Father incomprehensible [SIZE=-1][unlimited][/SIZE], the Son incomprehensible [SIZE=-1][unlimited][/SIZE], and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible [SIZE=-1][unlimited][/SIZE].
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three incomprehensibles [SIZE=-1][infinites][/SIZE], nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible [SIZE=-1][infinite][/SIZE].
13. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty.
14. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God.
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord.
18. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity: to acknowledge every Person by himself to be both God and Lord,
20. So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion, to say, There be [SIZE=-1][are][/SIZE] three Gods, or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other; none is greater, or less than another [SIZE=-1][there is nothing before, or after: nothing greater or less][/SIZE];
26. But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal.
27. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must [SIZE=-1][let him][/SIZE] thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man;
31. God, of the Substance [SIZE=-1][Essence][/SIZE] of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [SIZE=-1][Essence][/SIZE] of his Mother, born in the world;
32. Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting;
33. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching his Manhood.
34. Who although he be [SIZE=-1][is][/SIZE] God and Man, yet he is not two, but one Christ;
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking assumption of the Manhood into God;
36. One altogether, not by confusion of Substance [SIZE=-1][Essence][/SIZE], but by unity of Person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell [SIZE=-1][Hades, spirit-world][/SIZE], rose again the third day from the dead.
39. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God [SIZE=-1][God the Father][/SIZE] Almighty,
40. From whence [SIZE=-1][thence][/SIZE] he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies
42. And shall give account for their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully [SIZE=-1][truly and firmly][/SIZE], he cannot be saved.

NOTE: Catholic in this sense means universal, not RCC

The problem with the creed is this, it is not scripture but rather an interpretation of scripture (whether right or wrong it doesn't matter).

 

[Yekcidmij]

A creed is not a doctrine. For instance, my doctrine about the Trinity is that I believe it, find little scriptural support for it, therefore conclude that although true, it's importance is far over stated.

I think it is important. Are going to say Jesus is God and there is only One God and then say the relation between Jesus and God isn't important? Trinitarianism as summarized by the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds develops from the question of trying to figure out Jesus' relation with the Father. Are we going to affirm that we worship only One God and if so, how does the exalted Lord Jesus fit into this picture?

When Moses writes the Shema (Deut 6:4) He tells Israel that they are to give their loyalty to YHWH alone (a command Jesus calls the greatest command). Paul very brilliant reaffirms the Shema and so affirms that Christians worship One God, but Paul manages to work Jesus into the Shema:

Deut 6:4 (NRSV) Hear, O Israel: YHWH is our God, YHWH alone. 6:5 You must love the Lord your God with your whole mind, your whole being, and all your strength.


1 Cor 8:4 With regard then to eating food sacrificed to idols, we know that “an idol in this world is nothing,” and that “there is no God but one.” 8:5 If after all there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),

8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live,
and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live

His comments in verses 5–6 reflect a thorough understanding of the Shema in its original context. For the sake of argument, he declares hypothetically that even if one concedes the existence of other gods (which, in the light of verse 4, he is obviously not actually willing to do), “but for us" there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came (cf. Deut 32:6, 18) and for whom we live (cf. Deut 14:1); and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”

Translated into its original context on the plains of Moab, this is precisely the sort of thing that Moses could have said: “Even if one concedes the existence of other gods (which in the light of Deut 4:35, 39 he is obviously unwilling to do), but for us there is but one God, our Father (cf. Deut 1:31; 14:1; 32:6, 18), from whom all things came (cf. Gen 1:1–2:4a) and for whom we live (cf. Exod 19:5–6); his name is Yahweh, through whom all things came (Exod 20:11; 31:17), and through whom we live (Exod 20:2; Deut 5:6).” What is remarkable in Paul, however, is his insertion of the name “Jesus Christ” after kuvrios, which, on first sight, reflects Hebrew “Yahweh” of the Shema. However, in view of his reference to “many gods” and “many lords” in verse 5, here he appears to have in mind the title adonay rather than the personal name Yahweh. But the Christological effect is extraordinary.​

On the one hand, Yahweh, the one and only God to whom the Israelites declared allegiance is hereby identified unequivocally with Jesus. What the OT has said about Yahweh may now be said about the Christ. On the other hand, in and through Jesus Christ one encounters the one and only God​

http://www.freewebs.com/trinitytruth/How%20Many%20is%20God_JETS.pdf (pdf page 19)​

I think what Block is getting at is that when considering the original setting and context, Moses' message to Israel in Moab could could very easily be said (like 1 Corinthians 8):​

Israel, For us there is One God, our Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; And His Name is YHWH through whom all things came and through whom we live.​

Paul has managed to work Jesus of Nazareth into a statement of monotheism. And Paul in 1 Corinthians 8 is in effect, while establishing that God our Father is in some sense distinct from Jesus, saying the Shema like this:​

Hear O Israel, YHWH is our God; Jesus Christ alone.​

 

[imperfectchristian]

nm

 

[BenAdam]

I support the statement of faith on this site as well and have stated in several places that I believe in the trinity and accept the Nicene Creed.

Having said that, I think your evaluation of that verse is doctrinally biased.

Please remember that this is not a debate thread but a discussion thread.

 

[imperfectchristian]

I deleted my remarks. Even though I did not mean them to debate, it was an argumentative statement that I made. Sorry...not trying to mess up your thread.

 

[Charles L. Blackman]

Why do you believe in the Trinity? It's concept is rather sketchy in scripture.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

 

[BenAdam]

I think it is important. Are going to say Jesus is God and there is only One God and then say the relation between Jesus and God isn't important? Trinitarianism as summarized by the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds develops from the question of trying to figure out Jesus' relation with the Father. Are we going to affirm that we worship only One God and if so, how does the exalted Lord Jesus fit into this picture?

I didn't say it wasn't important, I said it's importance is overstated. Coming into a fuller understanding of God is part of growth, however some elevate it to levels of importance far higher than necessary.

I will even go so far to say that belief in Jesus as God is not essential to the moment of salvation. I don't believe one could actively deny it and come to salvation, but one could be agnostic about it and get saved.

When Moses writes the Shema (Deut 6:4) He tells Israel that they are to give their loyalty to YHWH alone (a command Jesus calls the greatest command). Paul very brilliant reaffirms the Shema and so affirms that Christians worship One God, but Paul manages to work Jesus into the Shema:

Deut 6:4 (NRSV) Hear, O Israel: YHWH is our God, YHWH alone. 6:5 You must love the Lord your God with your whole mind, your whole being, and all your strength.


1 Cor 8:4 With regard then to eating food sacrificed to idols, we know that “an idol in this world is nothing,” and that “there is no God but one.” 8:5 If after all there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),

8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live,
and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live

Liking what Israel needed to accept (Israel was unregenerated and needed the written laws and concepts to be accepted in order to protect them) to what a believer has revealed to them is a reach. Israel required the Law and the Prophets, we have the Holy Spirit.

 

[BenAdam]

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

That verse is of debatable authenticity.

 

[Tamara224]

I think it is important. Are going to say Jesus is God and there is only One God and then say the relation between Jesus and God isn't important? Trinitarianism as summarized by the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds develops from the question of trying to figure out Jesus' relation with the Father. Are we going to affirm that we worship only One God and if so, how does the exalted Lord Jesus fit into this picture?

When Moses writes the Shema (Deut 6:4) He tells Israel that they are to give their loyalty to YHWH alone (a command Jesus calls the greatest command). Paul very brilliant reaffirms the Shema and so affirms that Christians worship One God, but Paul manages to work Jesus into the Shema:

Deut 6:4 (NRSV) Hear, O Israel: YHWH is our God, YHWH alone. 6:5 You must love the Lord your God with your whole mind, your whole being, and all your strength.


1 Cor 8:4 With regard then to eating food sacrificed to idols, we know that “an idol in this world is nothing,” and that “there is no God but one.” 8:5 If after all there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),

8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live,
and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live

I think what Block is getting at is that when considering the original setting and context, Moses' message to Israel in Moab could could very easily be said (like 1 Corinthians 8):​

Israel, For us there is One God, our Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; And His Name is YHWH through whom all things came and through whom we live.​

Paul has managed to work Jesus of Nazareth into a statement of monotheism. And Paul in 1 Corinthians 8 is in effect, while establishing that God our Father is in some sense distinct from Jesus, saying the Shema like this:​

Hear O Israel, YHWH is our God; Jesus Christ alone.​

This is very interesting!

Liking what Israel needed to accept (Israel was unregenerated and needed the written laws and concepts to be accepted in order to protect them) to what a believer has revealed to them is a reach. Israel required the Law and the Prophets, we have the Holy Spirit.

I don't understand what you're saying here, BA.

Are you suggesting that Moses didn't learn by revelation the same as Paul did?

I understood Jim's post as saying that Paul was familiar with the Shema and expanded on it to include the revelation of the person Jesus Christ.

I'm not sure what the Law or the Israelites' need to follow the Law has to do with it...

(I'm not debating, I'm asking because I'm trying to understand what you wrote.)

 

[BenAdam]

I don't understand what you're saying here, BA.

Are you suggesting that Moses didn't learn by revelation the same as Paul did?

I understood Jim's post as saying that Paul was familiar with the Shema and expanded on it to include the revelation of the person Jesus Christ.

I'm not sure what the Law or the Israelites' need to follow the Law has to do with it...

(I'm not debating, I'm asking because I'm trying to understand what you wrote.)

Yeah I realize what I was saying was somewhat disjointed, allow me to elaborate.

Moses did NOT have the same revelation as Paul. In fact it would be impossible as Moses did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. However Moses did have a significantly greater revelation than anyone else at the time. Paul talks about it here:

2 Cor 3: 7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

My original point is that Israel needed to be told that God was one God or they in error would just add Him to the Pantheon of Canaanite, Egyptian, Hittite, what have you, gods. This was vital to the survival of the nation. This is not a concept that could be revealed to them (in general). However we have the Holy Spirit that abides in us to lead us into all truth.

 

[Tamara224]

Yeah I realize what I was saying was somewhat disjointed, allow me to elaborate.

Moses did NOT have the same revelation as Paul. In fact it would be impossible as Moses did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. However Moses did have a significantly greater revelation than anyone else at the time. Paul talks about it here:

Hmmm... I guess I see what you're saying. I don't want to derail the thread, but I tend to think that Moses probably had the greater revelation. He saw God face to face. And God spoke to him all the time and taught him truth, as well.

In any event, as far as truth being revealed to them the only difference between Moses and Paul is that manner of that revelation. And even then - there are more similarities than differences. IMHO.

My original point is that Israel needed to be told that God was one God or they in error would just add Him to the Pantheon of Canaanite, Egyptian, Hittite, what have you, gods. This was vital to the survival of the nation. This is not a concept that could be revealed to them (in general). However we have the Holy Spirit that abides in us to lead us into all truth.

I still don't understand what you're saying, sorry BA. At least, I don't understand how it applies to what Jim posted.

Paul was talking to people who came from a culture that believed in pantheons as well. And Paul told the Gentiles all the time that there was one God. They needed to be told that. Or at least, it seems Paul thought they did, because he certainly told them that.

So... how is it that it's "stretching" to show that Paul was expanding on the revelation that Moses had been given?