Trinity as doctrine?

[LifeToTheFullest!]

When did the doctrine of the trinity first become canonical in the NT church?

 

[razeontherock]

Wasn't it the Nicene Creed? In any event it was only developed to combat weird ideas people were coming up with. IMHO it was only the influence of the Roman govt and especially Constantine that forced the issue of "canonical." Before that the same ideas existed, and much like now no doubt people struggled for Truth. And still none of us firmly grasp it all.

 

[drich0150]

I agree "doctrine" was not recognized as doctrine till someone in the RC church deemed it necessary to make that distinction. Before "doctrine" it just was.

It's like when did we first define the parameters of gravity? Just because we did not label these principles up until a few hundred years ago, does it mean these laws were not still in place? The same it true with the "doctrine" of the trinity. If there is any doubt turn to the pages of scripture.

 

[E.C.]

When did the doctrine of the trinity first become canonical in the NT church?

It was always accepted that there was a common divinity between God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit; however, it was not articulated into the Trinity until Arianism.

We must remember that Arianism stated that Christ was not God, but was just a mere mortal like the rest of us. Today's Jehova's Witnesses are neo-Arians. It was at the Council of Nicaea in 325 when Arianism was refuted because the divide between Arians and non-Arians 1) is a very key thing to what Christianity is and/or is not and 2) people were being killed for being Arians or non-Arians.

 

[berachah]

It was there from the beginning..
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one....1 John 5:7 KJV.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Is there any mention of the trinity prior to John's gospel?

 

[berachah]

Genesis 1:26 And God says Let us make man in our image"

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Genesis 1:26 And God says Let us make man in our image"

Is it your opinion the "us" is referring to the trinity? Would it have not been more consistent for the author of Genesis to have said, "We are the Lord Your God" when imparting the ten commandments?

 

[a_ntv]

Is there any mention of the trinity prior to John's gospel?

for example:

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you."[2 Cor. 13:14]

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"[Mt 28:19]

If you want to go back in the books, the Three Men visiting Abraham in Gen 18:2 are usually seen as prefiguration of the Trinity

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

for example:

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you."[2 Cor. 13:14]

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"[Mt 28:19]

If you want to go back in the books, the Three Men visiting Abraham in Gen 18:2 are usually seen as prefiguration of the Trinity

Thanks for these references.

Is it logical to assume these references allude to equality between the three?

 

[razeontherock]

Since when does equality have anything to do with it? Isaiah gave us that the Lord is our Judge, Lawgiver and King. Straight up Trinity right there, and i imagine you've seen me post that quote and reference enough times by now ...

 

[berachah]

John 8:56 Verily, verily I say unto you before abraham was I am... (the same name God gave of himself to Moses before he was sent back to Egypt
John 17:5 And now O Father, .......glorify me with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John 10:30,33 I and my Father are one.............The Jews answered him saying, for a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God

 

[a_ntv]

Thanks for these references.

Is it logical to assume these references allude to equality between the three?

The three persons are equal because all of them are "Lord", are "divine", bear the same NAME, are the One God
That is the reason of the verse of Mt28:19 I quoted: the Name of all of them, which save us, is only one (YHWH)

The three persons are not equal because each of them has His own characteristic, and the the way to interact with the men are different, thus
- God interact with men in a well defined procedure: from the Father, by the Son through the Holy Spirit
- vice-versa, all our prayers should be through the Holy Spirit, by the Son, to the Father.
That is the reason of the sentence of 2Cor13 I quoted

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

It was there from the beginning..
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one....1 John 5:7 KJV.

Is it true that this was added later, and was not originally recorded in the Greek copies?

 

[a_ntv]

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one....1 John 5:7 KJV.

About this verse the manuscript situation is the following:

- the reading "the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost":
μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ πατὴρ ὁ λόγος καὶ τὸ ἅγιον πνεῦμα, καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἕν εἰσιν. 8 καὶ τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῇ γῇ, τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ τὸ αἷμα] (61 429v.r. omit the following καὶ οἱ τρεῖς εἰς τὸ ἕν εἰσι&#957 88v.r. 221v.r. (629 ἀπὸ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ, πατὴρ λόγος καὶ πνεῦμα ἅγιον, καὶ οἱ τρεῖς εἰς τὸ ἕν... ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, τὸ πνεῦμα, τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ τὸ αἷμα and omit the following καὶ οἱ τρεῖς εἰς τὸ ἕν εἰσι&#957 (636v.r. omit οὗτο&#953 (918 καὶ πνεῦμα ἅγιο&#957 2318 2473 lAD vgcl armmss ς ND Dio
testimonium di[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] (oppure dant) in terra, spiritus (oppure spiritus et) aqua et sanguis, et hi tres unum sunt in Christo Iesu. 8 et tres sunt, qui testimonium di[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] in caelo, pater, verbum et spiritus] (itc itdem itdiv omit in Christo Iesu) itl itm itp (itq omit et hi tres unum sunt in Christo Iesu) vgmss (Cyprian) (Ps-Cyprian) (Priscillian) Ps-Vigilius Cassian Speculum Varimadum Fulgentius Ps-Athanasius Ansbert mssaccording to Victor-Vita

- the reading " Spirit, the water and the blood":
μαρτυροῦντες, 8 τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ τὸ αἷμα] [bless and do not curse]א A B K L P (Ψ 1844 1852 μαρτυροῦνσι&#957 048 049 056 0142 0296 1 18 33 35 42 69 81 82 88text 93 102 104 110 175 181 205 209 221text 307 322 323 326 330 398 400 424 429text 436 450 451 454 457 469 479 517 614 623 627 630 635 636text 643 920 945 1067 1175 1241 1243 1249 1292 1409 1505 1611 1735 1739 1844 1846 1852 1877 1881 2127 2138 2298 2344 2412 (2464 καὶ ὕδω&#961 2492 2495 2777 2815 Byz Lect (l884 βάπτισμα for αἷμ&#945 itar vgww vgst syrp syrh copsa copbo armmss eth geo arab slav Irenaeus Irenaeuslat Tertullian Hippolytus (Origenlat) Rebaptism Faustinus Hilary Lucifer Athanasius Basil Gregory-Nazianzus Ambrose Didymus Epiphanius Chrysostom Jerome Augustine (Cyril) Ps-Dionysiusvid Quodvultdeus Facundus (John-Damascus) NR CEI Riv TILC Nv NM

So it is quite sure, by the overwhelming majority of manuscripts, that the original reading was "Spirit, the water and the blood", so also the NA27. I'm sorry for King James.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

So it is quite sure, by the overwhelming majority of manuscripts, that the original reading was "Spirit, the water and the blood", so also the NA27. I'm sorry for King James.

What then in this context does "spirit, water and blood" refer to?

 

[a_ntv]

What then in this context does "spirit, water and blood" refer to?

Wellcome in the arena ! as many interpretations as the Christians are..

And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth. http://bible.cc/1_john/5-8.htmFor there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for the witness of God is this, that he hath borne witness concerning his Son (1Jn5:5-9 ASV)

I agree with the ancient interpretation of St ambrose (Iv century) who says: Therefore read that the three witnesses in baptism, the water, the blood, and the Spirit, are one, for if you take away one of these, the Sacrament of Baptism does not exist. For what is water without the cross of Christ? A common element, without any sacramental effect. Nor, again, is there the Sacrament of Regeneration without water: “For except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.....” (De mysteriis 20)

Thus the original meaning probably was that: to be saved it is necessary the witness (i.e. the mark) of baptism which requires three items: the pouring of Water, the anointing with the oil (Spirit), and the cross of Jesus (Blood).
That because in the early centuries the baptism was often seen as a mark (from Ez 9:4, see also Rev 14:1 or 22:4), what in the moment of the judgment bore witness that the marked ones were saved and not to be punished.

 

[berachah]

Is it true that this was added later, and was not originally recorded in the Greek copies?

No, this is not true at all.
From the beginning of church history this verse was accepted and included in the Bible. Subsequent discoveries of potentially older manuscripts do not prove they are more correct merely because of suggested dating. Nor do quantities of documents support greater accuracy. So it depends on which ancient documents you put your trust in- I go along with the church has always believed and accepted as truth and accuracy.

 

[berachah]

What then in this context does "spirit, water and blood" refer to?

Man is made in the image of God. God is triune and so are we. (Body, soul and spirit.) Through sin man was fully separated from God: that is his body his soul and his spirit was cut off from God. Through Jesus Christ we have the opportunity to be fully reconciled back to God.

Firstly when we believe Jesus is the son of God and that he died for our sins we are born of water. (as opposed to being born of blood - 1 jn 5:6 says Jesus was born of water and blood - that is; he was born of man [blood] and of God [water]). Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God. 1 John 5:1. To be borne of flesh is to be able to discern and interact with the natural realm, to be borne of water allows us to interact with God who is Spirit. This is the reconciliation of the soul.

2ndly when we are baptised into Christ our sins of the flesh are washed away, we die to the old law and we come under the new law of grace through the sacrifice of Christ. This is the reconciliation of the body through the blood of Christ;

3rdly we receive the promise of the Holy Spirit. This is as prophesied by Jesus. The Spirit of God is the empowerment of Christians to be able to live a Christ-like life, to be a witness for the heavenly kingdom. This is our spiritual reconciliation to God. 3 in 1

 

[razeontherock]

About this verse the manuscript situation is the following:

- the reading "the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost":
μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ πατὴρ ὁ λόγος καὶ τὸ ἅγιον πνεῦμα, καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἕν εἰσιν. 8 καὶ τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῇ γῇ, τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ τὸ αἷμα] (61 429v.r. omit the following καὶ οἱ τρεῖς εἰς τὸ ἕν εἰσι&#957 88v.r. 221v.r. (629 ἀπὸ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ, πατὴρ λόγος καὶ πνεῦμα ἅγιον, καὶ οἱ τρεῖς εἰς τὸ ἕν... ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, τὸ πνεῦμα, τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ τὸ αἷμα and omit the following καὶ οἱ τρεῖς εἰς τὸ ἕν εἰσι&#957 (636v.r. omit οὗτο&#953 (918 καὶ πνεῦμα ἅγιο&#957 2318 2473 lAD vgcl armmss ς ND Dio
testimonium di[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] (oppure dant) in terra, spiritus (oppure spiritus et) aqua et sanguis, et hi tres unum sunt in Christo Iesu. 8 et tres sunt, qui testimonium di[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] in caelo, pater, verbum et spiritus] (itc itdem itdiv omit in Christo Iesu) itl itm itp (itq omit et hi tres unum sunt in Christo Iesu) vgmss (Cyprian) (Ps-Cyprian) (Priscillian) Ps-Vigilius Cassian Speculum Varimadum Fulgentius Ps-Athanasius Ansbert mssaccording to Victor-Vita

- the reading " Spirit, the water and the blood":
μαρτυροῦντες, 8 τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ τὸ αἷμα] [bless and do not curse]א A B K L P (Ψ 1844 1852 μαρτυροῦνσι&#957 048 049 056 0142 0296 1 18 33 35 42 69 81 82 88text 93 102 104 110 175 181 205 209 221text 307 322 323 326 330 398 400 424 429text 436 450 451 454 457 469 479 517 614 623 627 630 635 636text 643 920 945 1067 1175 1241 1243 1249 1292 1409 1505 1611 1735 1739 1844 1846 1852 1877 1881 2127 2138 2298 2344 2412 (2464 καὶ ὕδω&#961 2492 2495 2777 2815 Byz Lect (l884 βάπτισμα for αἷμ&#945 itar vgww vgst syrp syrh copsa copbo armmss eth geo arab slav Irenaeus Irenaeuslat Tertullian Hippolytus (Origenlat) Rebaptism Faustinus Hilary Lucifer Athanasius Basil Gregory-Nazianzus Ambrose Didymus Epiphanius Chrysostom Jerome Augustine (Cyril) Ps-Dionysiusvid Quodvultdeus Facundus (John-Damascus) NR CEI Riv TILC Nv NM

So it is quite sure, by the overwhelming majority of manuscripts, that the original reading was "Spirit, the water and the blood", so also the NA27. I'm sorry for King James.

This is illegible. Clarify?