Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by CherubRam

Quote: "And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, of the Mighty God and Everlasting Father,"

You are seeing what you want to see.
​

That is simply wrong!

What Hebrew text are you getting "of the" from?

No. I am afraid you are. There is no separate "of" there. From an interlinear Hebrew Bible[not all the Hebrew letters are rendered correctly]:
9:6 ( י ( 9:5 ִ
ki
that
boy
he-is-mborn
to·us
son
he-is-given
to·us
and·she-shall-become
the·chieftainship
on
shoulder-blade-of·him
and·he-shall-call
name-of·him
one-marvelous
one-counseling
El
masterful
Father-of-future
chief-of
well-being

Even Jews will say you are wrong.

Great post and I agree!
Thanks for the interlinear reference.

I especially enjoy using the ISA scripture4all interlinear, [which I have been for almost a decade] for my own translations.

"Shoulder blade of him" is also used in the Messianic passage of Isaiah 22:

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

Isaiah 22:
22 And I give key/04668 maphteach of house of David on shoulder-blade of him, and he opens
and no one locking/shutting-up, and locks/shuts-up and no one opening;
23 And I fasten/pitch him as a peg in place, one being sure. And he becomes to throne of glory, to house of his father.
24 And they hang on him all glory of house of His father, the offsprings, and the ones ejected, all vessels, the small, from vessels of the goblets and unto all of vessels of the crocks




.

 

[Colter]

There are shadows of plural deity remaining if the Hebrew writings, but it is difficult for a religion to retain plural deity concepts when in competition with the pantheon of other Gods among closely associated people such as Baal. The oneness of God doesn't preclude unified divine personality's like the incarnate God in Jesus.

 

[RevelationTestament]

There are shadows of plural deity remaining if the Hebrew writings, but it is difficult for a religion to retain plural deity concepts when in competition with the pantheon of other Gods among closely associated people such as the Baal.

What makes God, God? The Word. Christ is one Word with the Father. They are not competing gods of the sun, the moon, of war, etc. They are one Elohim. They are YHWH Elohim together. That is one difference. Jesus cannot become the Father outside of the Father, but only through Him as His inheritor. He will not be a separate or new God/Elohim. This is not Greek Theology, but Biblical theology here.

 

[RevelationTestament]

That is simply wrong!

What Hebrew text are you getting "of the" from?
Great post and I agree!
Thanks for the interlinear reference.

I especially enjoy using the ISA scripture4all interlinear, [which I have been for almost a decade] for my own translations.

"Shoulder blade of him" is also used in the Messianic passage of Isaiah 22:

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

Isaiah 22:
22 And I give key/04668 maphteach of house of David on shoulder-blade of him, and he opens
and no one locking/shutting-up, and locks/shuts-up and no one opening;
23 And I fasten/pitch him as a peg in place, one being sure. And he becomes to throne of glory, to house of his father.
24 And they hang on him all glory of house of His father, the offsprings, and the ones ejected, all vessels, the small, from vessels of the goblets and unto all of vessels of the crocks

.

Thanks.
I usually use a version available for "The Word" software when doing a lot of research. I like being able to immediately switch back and forth between the different Bibles. And a lot of versions are free.

 

[Gibs]

Jesus understood who the one and only True God is and some here do not, Hear Him,

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

 

[Colter]

What makes God, God? The Word. Christ is one Word with the Father. They are not competing gods of the sun, the moon, of war, etc. They are one Elohim. They are YHWH Elohim together. That is one difference. Jesus cannot become the Father outside of the Father, but only through Him as His inheritor. He will not be a separate or new God/Elohim. This is not Greek Theology, but Biblical theology here.

I didn't say or imply that God the Son competes with or has an agenda separate from his Father, the source of the Sons divinity. Jesus is an existential personification of the Father. The Father delegates powers and authority to subordinate deities.

 

[CherubRam]

That is simply wrong!

What Hebrew text are you getting "of the" from?
Great post and I agree!
Thanks for the interlinear reference.

I especially enjoy using the ISA scripture4all interlinear, [which I have been for almost a decade] for my own translations.

"Shoulder blade of him" is also used in the Messianic passage of Isaiah 22:

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

Isaiah 22:
22 And I give key/04668 maphteach of house of David on shoulder-blade of him, and he opens
and no one locking/shutting-up, and locks/shuts-up and no one opening;
23 And I fasten/pitch him as a peg in place, one being sure. And he becomes to throne of glory, to house of his father.
24 And they hang on him all glory of house of His father, the offsprings, and the ones ejected, all vessels, the small, from vessels of the goblets and unto all of vessels of the crocks
.

And where did you get the word "of" from? Greek and Hebrew do not always translate well into English.

 

[Colter]

BTW, "Yahweh" was the name of one of many competing nature Gods of the Semitic nomads. Yahweh was the name associated with the Saini Volcano where the fleeing Israelites would hang out with Moses for a period of time. So Yahweh became the official name for God even though we don't really know what Gods real name is.

 

[Der Alte]

BTW, "Yahweh" was the name of one of many competing nature Gods of the Semitic nomads. Yahweh was the name associated with the Saini Volcano where the fleeing Israelites would hang out with Moses for a period of time. So Yahweh became the official name for God even though we don't really know what Gods real name is.

Where did you get this stuff or did you just make it up? And OBTW Wiki is not a credible source.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And where did you get the word "of" from? Greek and Hebrew do not always translate well into English.

Find 1 bible version that uses "of the" in that verse. Or go check the Hebrew out on it. The burden of proof is on you........

Originally Posted by CherubRam

Quote: "And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, of the Mighty God and Everlasting Father,"
​

.

 

[CherubRam]

Except what scripture says:
Jer 23:5 ¶Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, YHWH our righteousness.

Jeremiah 33:16
16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, YHWH our righteousness.

You had me going for a minute. (he / it) (she / it)

Yahwah Our Righteous Savior
Jeremiah 23 (NIV)
5 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
6 In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which (he / it) will be called:
(The Lord / Yahwah) Our Righteous Savior.

Jeremiah 33 (NIV)
15 “‘In those days and at that time
I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David’s line;
he will do what is just and right in the land.
16 In those days Judah will be saved
and Jerusalem will live in safety.
This is the name by which (he / it) will be called:
(The Lord / Yahwah) Our Righteous Savior.’

Jeremiah 23:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is (his / its) name whereby (he / it) shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.

Jeremiah 33:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith (she / it) shall be called, (The Lord / Yahwah) our righteousness.

 

[RevelationTestament]

You had me going for a minute. (he / it) (she / it)

Yahwah Our Righteous Savior
Jeremiah 23 (NIV)
5 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
6 In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which (he / it) will be called:
(The Lord / Yahwah) Our Righteous Savior.

Jeremiah 33 (NIV)
15 “‘In those days and at that time
I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David’s line;
he will do what is just and right in the land.
16 In those days Judah will be saved
and Jerusalem will live in safety.
This is the name by which (he / it) will be called:
(The Lord / Yahwah) Our Righteous Savior.’

Jeremiah 23:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is (his / its) name whereby (he / it) shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.

Jeremiah 33:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith (she / it) shall be called, (The Lord / Yahwah) our righteousness.

It doesn't matter which version you believe. The fact is that not only the Father is or will be YHWH as you said.

 

[CherubRam]

It doesn't matter which version you believe. The fact is that not only the Father is or will be YHWH as you said.

Those verses are speaking of Israel and Jerusalem.

 

[Der Alte]

You had me going for a minute. (he / it) (she / it)

Yahwah Our Righteous Savior
Jeremiah 23 (NIV)
5 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
6 In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which (he / it) will be called:
(The Lord / Yahwah) Our Righteous Savior.

Jeremiah 33 (NIV)
15 “‘In those days and at that time
I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David’s line;
he will do what is just and right in the land.
16 In those days Judah will be saved
and Jerusalem will live in safety.
This is the name by which (he / it) will be called:
(The Lord / Yahwah) Our Righteous Savior.’

Jeremiah 23:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is (his / its) name whereby (he / it) shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.

Jeremiah 33:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith (she / it) shall be called, (The Lord / Yahwah) our righteousness.

Jeremiah 23:5 according to the 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation.

Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous shoot, and he shall reign as king and prosper, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The LORD is our righteousness.​

 

[RevelationTestament]

BTW, "Yahweh" was the name of one of many competing nature Gods of the Semitic nomads. Yahweh was the name associated with the Saini Volcano where the fleeing Israelites would hang out with Moses for a period of time. So Yahweh became the official name for God even though we don't really know what Gods real name is.

No. No. No.
Please show anywhere where general Semitic nomads called God YHWH. There is written evidence that some, like the Canaanites called God El, which is the semitic word for God. YHWH seems to say that no one knew Him by his name YHWH before Moses, but that they knew Him by El Shaddai, which I believe actually was Jesus. So it seems, you will be very hard pressed to show otherwise. There was no mountain called YHWH either. The mountain was Horeb or Sinai. YHWH is God's "real" name according to Him. Letter by letter it means Behold the hand, behold the nail - a name which Jesus and the Father share. Further, the Father is called El Elyon, the Most High God, which is a title exclusive to the Father, and Jesus is the Son of El Elyon according to the Bible.

 

[Gibs]

Jesus is YHWH because God the Father is In Him Fully, Jesus is the body prepared for that indwelling!

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

That body was the man child born of Mary and one of us.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

There is coming the time LORD of Hosts, the extension of the Father will be returned to the Him that He will be ALL IN ALL AGAIN, read 1 Cor 15:24-28!

 

[RevelationTestament]

Those verses are speaking of Israel and Jerusalem.

Yes and no. The first is speaking specifically of a man called the branch. See Zech 3. But you are right, more will follow him. The branch are also the elect which will inherit the holy mountain with our Savior.

 

[RevelationTestament]

I didn't say or imply that God the Son competes with or has an agenda separate from his Father, the source of the Sons divinity. Jesus is an existential personification of the Father. The Father delegates powers and authority to subordinate deities.

Well, you are still thinking like a Greek it seems where each being is a separate God or deity. There is only one Elohim or family of stone. A tree is made up of many branches, and a Rock is made up of many particles of sand... There is the head of the cornerstone, the cornerstone, and all the other stones that make the rock of the gospel. But there is still but one head and one rock. But, I do agree that the Father delegates authority to the particles of sand in the Rock - His servants the stones or the prophets.

 

[Colter]

Well, you are still thinking like a Greek it seems where each being is a separate God or deity. There is only one Elohim or family of stone. A tree is made up of many branches, and a Rock is made up of many particles of sand... There is the head of the cornerstone, the cornerstone, and all the other stones that make the rock of the gospel. But there is still but one head and one rock. But, I do agree that the Father delegates authority to the particles of sand in the Rock - His servants the stones or the prophets.

We are all sons and daughters of God, personalities separate from the Father. But we aren't all creator Sons. God the Son is a personality reality separate from the Universal Father yet indistinguishabley unified with the father in divinity.

 

[CherubRam]

Yes and no. The first is speaking specifically of a man called the branch. See Zech 3. But you are right, more will follow him. The branch are also the elect which will inherit the holy mountain with our Savior.

I understand that, but after that the subject is changed to Israel and Jerusalem.