Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

[CherubRam]

Christ is the Rock. therefore, Christ is YHWH.

And where is that written in scriptures?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by The Boxer

Christ is the Rock. therefore, Christ is YHWH.
​

And where is that written in scriptures?

Whom was Paul referring to in this passage?

1Co 10:
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink.
For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.



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[CherubRam]

Psalm 118:22
The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone;...

Zechariah 3:9
See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,’ says the Lord Almighty, ‘and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.

Revelation 1:20
The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

Revelation 5:6
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

 

[CherubRam]

Whom was Paul referring to in this passage?

1Co 10:
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink.
For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.



.

Many places in the Old Testament Yahwah is called the "Rock." It was Yahwah whom followed the people. Maybe the verse is not correctly translated. Did you want to check?

BibleGateway.com - Keyword Search: Rock

 

[Der Alte]

Many places in the Old Testament Yahwah is called the "Rock." It was Yahwah whom followed the people. Maybe the verse is not correctly translated. Did you want to check?

How would you know if 1 Cor 10:4 is translated correctly or not if you don't read Greek? Here is the verse in Greek. The Greek word translated Christ is Χριστός/Christos and as you can see it appears very clearly in the text.

1Co 10:4 καὶ πάντες τὸ αὐτὸ πνευματικὸν ἔπιον πόμα· ἔπινον γὰρ ἐκ πνευματικῆς ἀκολουθούσης πέτρας· ἡ πέτρα δὲ ἦν ὁ Χριστός.

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.​

 

[CherubRam]

How would you know if 1 Cor 10:4 is translated correctly or not if you don't read Greek? Here is the verse in Greek. The Greek word translated Christ is Χριστός/Christos and as you can see it appears very clearly in the text.

1Co 10:4 καὶ πάντες τὸ αὐτὸ πνευματικὸν ἔπιον πόμα· ἔπινον γὰρ ἐκ πνευματικῆς ἀκολουθούσης πέτρας· ἡ πέτρα δὲ ἦν ὁ Χριστός.

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.​

The verse is a contradiction to the Old Testament.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Many places in the Old Testament Yahwah is called the "Rock." It was Yahwah whom followed the people. Maybe the verse is not correctly translated. Did you want to check?

BibleGateway.com - Keyword Search: Rock

"The Christ" is in all the greek texts.

Doesn't Christ simply mean "annointed"? I mean heck, that could even include Moses and/or Aaron I would think.

Numbers 20:11
Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff.
Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank.

http://www.greeknewtestament.com/index.htm

4 and all drank the same spiritual drink.
For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was the Christ.

kai[AND] panteV[ALL] to[THE] auto[SAME] poma[DRINK] pneumatikon[SPIRITUAL] epion[DRINKING] epinon[THEY DRANK]
gar[FOR] ek[FROM OUT] pneumatikhV[OF SPIRITUAL] akolouqoushV[FOLLOWING] petraV[ROCK]
h[THE] de[YET] petrA[ROCK] hn[WAS] o[THE] cristoV[CHRIST/ANNOINTED]

5547. Christos khris-tos' from 5548; anointed, i.e. the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus:--Christ.
5548. chrio khree'-o probably akin to 5530 through the idea of contact; to smear or rub with oil, i.e. (by implication) to consecrate to an office or religious service:--anoint.

.

 

[CherubRam]

"The Christ" is in all the greek texts.

Doesn't Christ simply mean "annointed"? I mean heck, that could even include Moses and/or Aaron I would think.

Numbers 20:11
Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff.
Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank.

http://www.greeknewtestament.com/index.htm

4 and all drank the same spiritual drink.
For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was the Christ.

kai[AND] panteV[ALL] to[THE] auto[SAME] poma[DRINK] pneumatikon[SPIRITUAL] epion[DRINKING] epinon[THEY DRANK]
gar[FOR] ek[FROM OUT] pneumatikhV[OF SPIRITUAL] akolouqoushV[FOLLOWING] petraV[ROCK]
h[THE] de[YET] petrA[ROCK] hn[WAS] o[THE] cristoV[CHRIST/ANNOINTED]

5547. Christos khris-tos' from 5548; anointed, i.e. the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus:--Christ.
5548. chrio khree'-o probably akin to 5530 through the idea of contact; to smear or rub with oil, i.e. (by implication) to consecrate to an office or religious service:--anoint.

.

Here is the part that is questionable: "and that Rock was the Christ."

Any chance that that part is a late addition?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Here is the part that is questionable: "and that Rock was the Christ."

Any chance that that part is a late addition?

If your so concerned about it, why don't you go research it.




.

 

[Gibs]

The Rock, Jesus Christ is the Water of Life!

 

[Der Alte]

How would you know if 1 Cor 10:4 is translated correctly or not if you don't read Greek? Here is the verse in Greek. The Greek word translated Christ is Χριστός/Christos and as you can see it appears very clearly in the text.

1Co 10:4 καὶ πάντες τὸ αὐτὸ πνευματικὸν ἔπιον πόμα· ἔπινον γὰρ ἐκ πνευματικῆς ἀκολουθούσης πέτρας· ἡ πέτρα δὲ ἦν ὁ Χριστός.

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.​

The verse is a contradiction to the Old Testament.

Not to me and not my problem.

 

[Der Alte]

Here is the part that is questionable: "and that Rock was the Christ."

Any chance that that part is a late addition?

Not a chance! According to the textual apparatus there are no textual variations in 1 Cor 10:4.

Irenaeus (c.130-c.200) Fragments from the Lost Writings
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

And as He was born of Mary in the last times, so did He also proceed from God as the First-begotten of every creature; and as He hungered, so did He satisfy [others]; and as He thirsted, so did He of old cause the Jews to drink, for the "Rock was Christ"​

 

[Gibs]

There is no problem with 1Co 10:4 nor does it contradict the old Testament! There is far more meaning to these texts than most are seeing.

 

[2ducklow]

1 cor 2.4 new Living Translation
and all of them drank the same spiritual water. For they drank from the spiritual rock that traveled with them, and that rock was Christ.

Christ isn't a rock, the rock was a type of Christ. God commanded moses to strike the rock in exodus, which he did, and God commanded Moses to speak unto the rock in numbers (a different occasion).. But Moses disobeyed God by striking the rock twice instead of doing what God said which was to speak to the rock. BEcause of that infraction Moses was not allowed to enter the promoised land. and that is because Moses broke a type. Moses strinking the rock the first time was a type of Christ death moses striking the rock the second time was a type of Christ dying twice. So it was a serious infraction on moses part because he broke a very serious typology.

num 20.7 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 8 Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.
11 And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.

12 And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them


Again, Jesus is not literally a rock, and Jesus wasn't literally the rock that moses struck, Christ is not literally a rock, a loaf of bread, a highway, the word of God, the life or the truth. He is figuratively those things. Christ is literally the anointed son of God. He is literally the man Christ Jesus. I use to chunk rocks when I was a kid, I wasn't chunking Jesus.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Many places in the Old Testament Yahwah is called the "Rock." It was Yahwah whom followed the people. Maybe the verse is not correctly translated.

And many places in the new testament declare that Christ is Yahwah. It was Jesus who led the people out of Egypt.

For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality anddeny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. Jude 4-5 ESV

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by CherubRam

Here is the part that is questionable: "and that Rock was the Christ."

Any chance that that part is a late addition?
​

There is no problem with 1Co 10:4 nor does it contradict the old Testament!
There is far more meaning to these texts than most are seeing.

Originally Posted by CherubRam

Many places in the Old Testament Yahwah is called the "Rock." It was Yahwah whom followed the people. Maybe the verse is not correctly translated.
​

And many places in the new testament declare that Christ is Yahwah. It was Jesus who led the people out of Egypt.

4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality anddeny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. Jude 1:4-5 ESV

Whoa! Thanks for that!

I must confess, I haven't read thru Jude in quite awhile.




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[2ducklow]

Jude 1. 5 I am minded, therefore, to put you in remembrance,--though ye know all things once for all, That the Lord, when a people out of Egypt he had saved, in, the next place, them that believed not, destroyed. (Rotherham)


" ver. 5. kurios {D}
Despite the weighty attestation supporting "Iesous (A B 33 81 322 323 424c 665 241 1739 1881 2298 2344 vg cop......). , a majority of the Committee was of the opinion that the reading was difficult to the point of impossibility, and explained its origin in terms of transcriptional oversight (KC being taken for IC). It was also observed that nowhere else does the author employ 'iesous alone, but always 'Iesous Xristos. The unique collocation theos Xristos read by p72 (did the scribe intend to write theou Xristos, "God's anointed one"?)is probably a scribal blunder; otherwise one would expect that Xristos would be represented also in other witnesses.
The great majority of witnesses read 'o before kurios, but on the strength of its absence from aleph Psi and the tendency of scribes to add the article, it was thought best to enlose 'o within square brackets.
[Critical principles seem to require the adoption of 'Iesous, which admittedly is the best attested reading among Greek and versional witneses (see above). Struck by the strange and unparalleled mention of Jesus in a statement about the redemption out of Egypt (yet compare Paul's reference to Xristos in 1 cor 10.4), copyists would have substituted ('o) kurios or 'o theos. It is possible however that ( as Hort conjectured) "the original text had only 'o, and that OTIO was read as OTIIC and perhaps as OTIKC" ("Notes on Select Readings, " ad loc.)

The origin of the variations in the position of apa_ is best explained by assuming that it originally stood after eidotas (as in p72 A B C2 L.......) ;because, however, the word did not seem to suit eidotas, and because the following to deuteron appeared to call for a word like prototon, apa_ was moved within the oti-clause so as to qualify soosas. B.M.M.and A.S."]
A Textual commentary on the Greek New Testament,, Bruce M. Metzger, 1975, pp723,72, United Bible Society.

jude 1. 5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe (NASB)

Jude 1.5 Now I desire to put you in remembrance, though ye know all things once for all, that the Lord, having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not (ASV)

Jude 1.5 is a good case showing that manuscript evidence isn't always a trump card.

 

[RevelationTestament]

Nonsense! See my post above quoting the Jewish Encyclopedia [JE]. The JE was written and reviewed by more than 30 Jewish scholars, that is what is known as credible, verifiable, historical evidence.

How would you respond to the assertion that YWHW means:
I am the way: I am the Word: I am life?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by CherubRam

Many places in the Old Testament Yahwah is called the "Rock." It was Yahwah whom followed the people. Maybe the verse is not correctly translated.
​

And many places in the new testament declare that Christ is Yahwah. It was Jesus who led the people out of Egypt.

For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality anddeny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. Jude 1: 4-5 ESV

Whoa! Thanks for that!

I must confess, I haven't read thru Jude in quite awhile.
.

Jude 1. 5 I am minded, therefore, to put you in remembrance,--though ye know all things once for all, That the Lord, when a people out of Egypt he had saved, in, the next place, them that believed not, destroyed. (Rotherham)


" ver. 5. kurios {D}
Despite the weighty attestation supporting "Iesous (A B 33 81 322 323 424c 665 241 1739 1881 2298 2344 vg cop......). , a majority of the Committee was of the opinion that the reading was difficult to the point of impossibility, and explained its origin in terms of transcriptional oversight (KC being taken for IC). It was also observed that nowhere else does the author employ 'iesous alone, but always 'Iesous Xristos. The unique collocation theos Xristos read by p72 (did the scribe intend to write theou Xristos, "God's anointed one"?)is probably a scribal blunder; otherwise one would expect that Xristos would be repreented also in other witnesses.
The great majority of witnesses read 'o before kurios, but on the strength of its absence from aleph Psi and the tendency of scribes to add the article, it was thought best to enlose 'o within square brackets.
[Critical principles seem to require the adoption of 'Iesous, which admittedly is the best attested reading among Greek and versional witneses (see above). Struck by the strange and unparalleled mention of Jesus in a statement about the redemption out of Egypt (yet compare Paul's reference to Xristos in 1 cor 10.4), copyists would have substituted ('o) kurios or 'o theos.

It is possible however that ( as Hort conjectured) "the original text had only 'o, and that OTIO was read as OTIIC and perhaps as OTIKC" ("Notes on Select Readings, " ad loc.)

The origin of the variations in the position of apa_ is best explained by assuming that it originally stood after eidotas (as in p72 A B C2 L.......) ;because, however, the word did not seem to suit eidotas, and because the following to deuteron appeared to call for a word like prototon, apa_ was moved within the oti-clause so as to qualify soosas. B.M.M.and A.S."
A Textual commentary on the Greek New Testament,, Bruce M. Metzger, 1975, pp723,72, United Bible Society.

Jude 1.5 is a good case showing that manuscript evidence isn't always a trump card.

Thanks for that.
I also decided to check some of the more popular Greek Mss that most Bible versions use and you are correct, it is "Lord" used in all them, not "Christ".

http://www.greeknewtestament.com/index.htm


5

Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
upomnhsai de umaV boulomai eidotaV umas apax touto oti o kurioV laon ek ghV aiguptou swsaV to deuteron touV mh pisteusantaV apwlesen
Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
upomnhsai de umaV boulomai eidotaV umas apax touto oti o kurioV laon ek ghV aiguptou swsaV to deuteron touV mh pisteusantaV apwlesen

Byzantine Majority
upomnhsai de umaV boulomai eidotaV umas apax touto oti o kurioV laon ek ghV aiguptou swsaV to deuteron touV mh pisteusantaV apwlesen

Alexandrian
upomnhsai de umaV boulomai eidotaV [umas] panta oti [o] kurioV apax laon ek ghV aiguptou swsaV to deuteron touV mh pisteusantaV apwlesen

Hort and Westcott
upomnhsai de umaV boulomai eidotaV apax panta oti kurioV laon ek ghV aiguptou swsaV to deuteron touV mh pisteusantaV apwlesen

Like the ESV, the DR also uses Jesus. Very peculiar....Which Mss do they use?

Douay Rheims
1:5
I will therefore admonish you, though ye once knew all things, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, did afterwards destroy them that believed not:



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[Der Alte]

How would you respond to the assertion that YWHW means:
I am the way: I am the Word: I am life?

I have already answered this in a previous post in this thread, reposted here for your benefit.

. . . Jewish Encyclopedia-Names of God

In appearance, Yhwh (יהוה) is the third person singular imperfect "kal" of the verb ( הוה ("to be"), meaning, therefore, "He is," or "He will be," or, perhaps, "He lives," the root idea of the word being,probably, "to blow," "to breathe," and hence, "to live." With this explanation agrees the meaning of the name given in Ex. iii. 14, where God is represented as speaking, and hence as using the first person—"I am" (אהיה, from ( היה, the later equivalent of the archaic stem ( הוה). The meaning would, therefore, be "He who is self-existing, self-sufficient," or, more concretely, "He who lives," the abstract conception of pure existence being foreign to Hebrew thought. There is no doubt that the idea of life was intimately connected with the name Yhwh from early times. He is the living God, as contrasted with the lifeless gods of the heathen, and He is the source and author of life (comp. I Kings xviii.; Isa. xli. 26-29, xliv. 6-20; Jer. x. 10, 14; Gen. ii. 7; etc.). So familiar is this conception of God to the Hebrew mind that it appears in the common formula of an oath, "hai Yhwh" (= "as Yhwh lives"; Ruth iii. 13; I Sam. xiv. 45; etc.).
If the explanation of the form above given be the true one, the original pronunciation must have been Yahweh ((יהוה) or Yahaweh (יהוה). From this the contracted form Jah or Yah (יה ) is most readily explained, and also the forms Jeho or Yeho (יהו ), and Jo or Yo (יו contracted from יהו , which the word assumes in combination in the first part of compound proper names, and Yahu or Yah (יהו ) in the second part of such names. The fact may also be mentioned that in Samaritan poetry יהוה rimes with words similar in ending to Yahweh, and Theodoret ("Quæst. 15 in Exodum") states that the Samaritans pronounced the name Iαβέ. Epiphanius ascribes the same pronunciation to an early Christian sect. Clement of Alexandria, still more exactly, pronounces 'Iαουέ or 'Iαουαί, and Origen, 'Iα. Aquila wrote the name in archaic Hebrew letters. In the Jewish-Egyptian magic-papyri it appears as Ιαωουηε. At least as early as the third century B.C. the name seems to have been regarded by the Jews as a "nomen ineffabile," on the basis of a somewhat extreme interpretation of Ex. xx. 7 and Lev. xxiv. 11 (see Philo, "De Vita Mosis," iii. 519, 529). Written only in consonants, the true pronunciation was forgotten by them. The Septuagint, and after it the New Testament, invariably render κύριος ("the Lord").

http://www.jewishencycloped[FONT="Times New Roman"ia.com/view.jsp?artid=52&letter=N]Jewish Encyclopedia online[/FONT]