Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

CherubRam · Jun 28, 2014

Exodus 20:3. "You shall have no other gods (Elohiyms) before me.

Deuteronomy 4:35. You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD (Yahuah) is God (Elohiym); besides Him there is no other.

Deuteronomy 4:39. Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD (Yahuah) is God (Elohiym) in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.

Deuteronomy 5:7. "You shall have no other (gods / elohiyms) before me.

Deuteronomy 6:4. Hear, O Israel: The Lord (Yahuah) our God (Elohiym), the LORD (Yauwah) is one (only.)

1 Kings 8:60. So that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD (Yahuah) is God (Elohiym) and that there is no other.

Isaiah 42:8. "I am the LORD (Yahuah); that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.

Isaiah 43:10. "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD (Yahuah), "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He. Before me no god (el) was formed, nor will there be one after me.

Isaiah 44:8. Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God (Eloah=Gods above) besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

Isaiah 45:5. I am the LORD (Yahuah), and there is no other; apart from me there is no (God / Elohiym).

6. so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am (the LORD / Yahuah), and there is no other.

Isaiah 45:14. This is what (the LORD / Yahuah) says: "The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush, and those tall Sabeans they will come over to you and will be yours; they will trudge behind you, coming over to you in chains. They will bow down before you and plead with you, saying, 'Surely God (El) is with you, and there is no other; there is no other god (Elohiym).' "

Isaiah 45:18. For this is what (the LORD / Yahuah) says: He who created the heavens, He is God (Elohiym); He who fashioned and made the earth, He founded it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited: He says: "I am (the LORD / Yahuah), and there is no other.

Isaiah 45:22. "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God (El), and there is no other.

Isaiah 46:9. Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God (El), and there is no other; I am God (Elohiym), and there is none like me.

Joel 2:27. Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am (the LORD / Yahuah) your God (Elohiym), and that there is no other; never again will my people be shamed.

Yahwah is God and he won't give his glory to another god.

The Greatest Commandment

Mark 12:28. One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus (Yahshua) had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29. "The most important one," answered Jesus (Yahshua), "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, (the Lord / Yahuah) our God (Elohiym), (the Lord / Yahuah) is one (only).

Mark 12:32. "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that (God / Yahwah) is one (only) and there is no other but Him.

John 14:28. "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you love me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

CherubRam · Jun 28, 2014

John 5
41 I do not accept praise from men.

John 5
41 I dont need [or accept; receive] praise [glory; honor] from [men; people.]

jamie2014 · Jun 28, 2014

PoliceOfficer said:
You still have failed to produce a convincing counterargument to a number of my points. I could bring them back up over and over.

And I'm sure you will.

Jesus is addressed in the NT as Lord as in Ephesians 4.

There is one body and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in you all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

So we know there is one Lord, Jesus, and one God and Father of all who is the Most High.

Does Jesus being Lord preclude him from being a god? Not at all.

I have said, "Ye are gods and all of you are children of the Most High." (Psalm 82;6)

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said ye are gods'"? If he called them gods unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken, say ye of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world, thou blasphemest because I said I am the Son of God? (John 10:34-36)

Yes, Jesus said he is the Son of God and God said he is a god because he is a son.

2ducklow · Jun 28, 2014

PoliceOfficer said:
You fabricated false things to no prevail. Of course Thomas Jefferson is dead, not alive, and so on...

By that logic, humans are soulless bodies, having no spirit.

.

As to your rebuttal, Jesus is 100 percent human which is composed of flesh and bone, a soul, and a human spirit, and Jesus is 100 percent God who is a spirit, thus that would mean a human body of flesh and bone, soul, and human spirit is God's spirit. So it's the same thing.

flesh and bone is spirit, flesh and bone , soul, and human spirit is god's spirit. It's the same thing when you say Jesus is both. Jesus is 100 percent the son of God, and 100 percent the son of Mary. thus the son of Mary is the Son of god. the substance in the bottle is 100 percent liquid and 100 percent water, so the water in the bottle is liquid. He is 100 percent a husband and 100 percent a father, thus that father is that husband, Same thing. The only way you can say someone is a 200 percenter is in some hyperbolic way. if you say anything is 100 percent this and 100 percent that, then this is that. There's no way around it.

PoliceOfficer said:
Christ wore flesh, just as we do. We are " flesh and blood" figuratively speaking, but truly we are spiritual beings inhabiting a tent of flesh.

you are implying here that Jesus spirit is God's spirit, that would mean Jesus is not 100 percent human. So you have contradicted yourself. If Jesus is 100 percent human, then he has a body, a soul and a human spirit. What you have described here is God clothed in a human body with no human soul and no human spirit.

THIS · Jun 28, 2014

BelCantoBaptist said:
You're misrepresenting the doctrine. I suggest you read this: 4Jehovah » Yes, You Should Believe in the Trinity

I am not representing the trinity doctrine.

Tell me now, are you a trinitarian? Do you believe Jesus is the same as God the Father?

THIS · Jun 28, 2014

jamie2014 said:
Are you claiming that God is a man born of woman who can bleed and die? That would be a very unusual God.

God can do anything He wants. If God wanted to come to us in the flesh, then He can do so, and He did.

THIS · Jun 28, 2014

BelCantoBaptist said:
John 1:14 "And the Word (pre-incarnate logos) became flesh and dwelt among us."

I seriously suggest you read the work "On the Incarnation" by Athanasius.

Revelation 1:8. “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “Who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 22:13.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End”

Revelation 1:17-18.
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last (stop here and ask again, ‘who is the First and the Last?&#8217. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!”

So, when did God die?

There is only One God, and He is the Father. Jesus is that SAME God the Father come in the flesh.

The trinity doctrine is false. The trinity doctrine makes a three-headed god.

THIS · Jun 28, 2014

2ducklow said:
this verse has significant problems .2 basic problems, it's unclear if the verse originally said 'church of God' or 'church of the Lord" If it said church of the Lord, then acts 20.28 is no proof that Jesus is God, and the other big problem is how to translate 'the blood of his own".

The Trinity Delusion: Acts 20:28

his own could be a term of endearment, it is in john 1.11 and 13.1.

john 1.11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

(Darby) Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, wherein the Holy Spirit has set you as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own

mucho problem with this verse.

Except for the fact that GOD is the biological Father of Jesus.

Jesus has not earthly father.

jamie2014 · Jun 28, 2014

THIS said:
God can do anything He wants. If God wanted to come to us in the flesh, then He can do so, and He did.

Yes, Christ came to us in the flesh by emptying himself of his divinity and taking the position of a servant.

You're not claiming that God is the servant of humans are you? Are you saying we are God's master and he is subject to us? Even subject to death?

Because of the Son's humility, God has given him a name above every name. Paul said, "And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

The Father is God, the Son is Lord.

2ducklow · Jun 28, 2014

THIS said:
Except for the fact that GOD is the biological Father of Jesus.

Jesus has not earthly father.

I don't see what your point is. How does this have anything to do with Jesus being called the term of endearment 'his own" by God? oh I get it now, you're saying that Jesus is God cause God begat Jesus, and using the logic that God begats his own kind.

I disagree, The father is not the biological father of Jesus, if he were it would mean Jesus is half human and half spirit.
Jesus is 100 percent human that means he was begotten with human seed and human egg. the human egg was from Mary, and the human seed was created by God and used by God. A mule is half donkey and half horse it isn't 100 percent donkey and 100 percent horse.

So, if I get your implications correct, then what you are saying means is that Jesus is half god and half man, half spirit and half flesh and bone. Jesus is the human son of God and Mary. Mary had a human son not a half and half son. the fetus inside Mary wasn't half spirit and half flesh. God doesn't have a female God who is his wife. God doesn't have spirit seed , and there's no female god with spirit eggs. So God doesn't begat his own kind.

THIS · Jun 28, 2014

jamie2014 said:
Jesus said God is Spirit. Spirit does not have flesh and blood. God is invisible and immortal, he can't die.

Jesus is an image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature. Creature refers to a created being. God was not born and God was not created.

Jesus is the Son of God. (Luke 1:35)

God came in the flesh.

God is Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is God.

Jesus IS THE SPIRIT.

Jesus is the Spirit. Revelation 2:7, 8, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13, 22; 14:13; 22:17 all tell us Jesus is the Spirit.

See also 2 Corinthians 3:17, 18, and 1 Corinthians 15:45.

THIS · Jun 28, 2014

jamie2014 said:
Christ became flesh and was born like any other human and his mother nursed him and changed him like any other baby.

When Christ became flesh he was no longer Spirit, he surrendered that and became mortal, his life was in his blood.

When Jesus died his body was entombed and his spirit returned to God who gave it. James defined death as the separtion of body and spirit.

You do not even believe in the life of our spirits after the death of our physical bodies, how then can you speak about such deep things of God?

THIS · Jun 28, 2014

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

jamie2014 said:
[FONT=&quot]Yes, Christ came to us in the flesh by emptying himself of his divinity and taking the position of a servant.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I dont think that you understand that scripture. Jesus is God in the flesh, yet while in the flesh, even though he is God---he became as a servant to humans. [/FONT]

jamie2014 said:
[FONT=&quot]

You're not claiming that God is the servant of humans are you?

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The scriptures say that Jesus is God in the flesh and that he came to serve many.[/FONT]

jamie2014 said:
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Are you saying we are God's master and he is subject to us? Even subject to death?

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God is the Master.[/FONT]

jamie2014 said:
[FONT=&quot]

Because of the Son's humility, God has given him a name above every name. Paul said, "And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God came as A MAN. This Man obeyed God the Father, so God made the name Jesus above all. [/FONT]

jamie2014 said:
[FONT=&quot]

The Father is God, the Son is Lord.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Father is God and IS SPIRIT. The Son is Lord and SPIRIT; Same God same Spirit.[/FONT]

THIS · Jun 28, 2014

2ducklow said:
[FONT=&quot]I don't see what your point is. How does this have anything to do with Jesus being called the term of endearment 'his own" by God? oh I get it now, you're saying that Jesus is God cause God begat Jesus, and using the logic that God begats his own kind.

I disagree, The father is not the biological father of Jesus, if he were it would mean Jesus is half human and half spirit.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We ALL are part human and part spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
Hebrews 12:9, Zechariah 12:1, and Malachi 2:15.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

2ducklow said:
[FONT=&quot]
Jesus is 100 percent human that means he was begotten with human seed and human egg. the human egg was from Mary, and the human seed was created by God and used by God. A mule is half donkey and half horse it isn't 100 percent donkey and 100 percent horse.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God is Spirit. How using two earthy things do you think you can make a comparison?[/FONT]

2ducklow said:
[FONT=&quot]

So, if I get your implications correct, then what you are saying means is that Jesus is half god and half man, half spirit and half flesh and bone. Jesus is the human son of God and Mary. Mary had a human son not a half and half son. the fetus inside Mary wasn't half spirit and half flesh. God doesn't have a female God who is his wife. God doesn't have spirit seed , and there's no female god with spirit eggs. So God doesn't begat his own kind.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Again, all humans are flesh AND spirit.[/FONT]

CherubRam · Jun 28, 2014

CherubRam said:
God is not a man: In Numbers 23:16; "God is not a man..." defies the possibility that Yahshua The Messiah is God. The text states that: Yahwah is not an ("iys/man) that He should lie, nor the son of (Adam/Man")...

Also Here:

Hosea 11:9
I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I devastate Ephraim again. For I am God, and not a man the Holy One among you.

Psalm 80:17
Let your hand rest on the man at your right hand, the son of man you have raised up for yourself.

Matthew 22:44
" '(The Lord / Yahuah) said to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." '

Matthew 26:64
"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Matthew 22:41
41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42"What do you think about the Messiah ? Whose son is he?" "The son of David," they replied. 43He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'lord'? For he says, 44" '(The Lord / Yahuah) said to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." 45If then David calls him 'lord,' how can he be his son?"

Matthew 1:20
But after he had considered this, an (angel / messenger) of (the Lord / Yahuah) appeared to him in a dream and said, Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

John 10:36
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, I am Gods Son?

CherubRam said:
Exodus 20:3. "You shall have no other gods (Elohiyms) before me.

Deuteronomy 4:35. You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD (Yahuah) is God (Elohiym); besides Him there is no other.

Deuteronomy 4:39. Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD (Yahuah) is God (Elohiym) in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.

Deuteronomy 5:7. "You shall have no other (gods / elohiyms) before me.

Deuteronomy 6:4. Hear, O Israel: The Lord (Yahuah) our God (Elohiym), the LORD (Yauwah) is one (only.)

1 Kings 8:60. So that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD (Yahuah) is God (Elohiym) and that there is no other.

Isaiah 42:8. "I am the LORD (Yahuah); that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.

Isaiah 43:10. "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD (Yahuah), "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He. Before me no god (el) was formed, nor will there be one after me.

Isaiah 44:8. Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God (Eloah=Gods above) besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

Isaiah 45:5. I am the LORD (Yahuah), and there is no other; apart from me there is no (God / Elohiym).

6. so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am (the LORD / Yahuah), and there is no other.

Isaiah 45:14. This is what (the LORD / Yahuah) says: "The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush, and those tall Sabeans they will come over to you and will be yours; they will trudge behind you, coming over to you in chains. They will bow down before you and plead with you, saying, 'Surely God (El) is with you, and there is no other; there is no other god (Elohiym).' "

Isaiah 45:18. For this is what (the LORD / Yahuah) says: He who created the heavens, He is God (Elohiym); He who fashioned and made the earth, He founded it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited: He says: "I am (the LORD / Yahuah), and there is no other.

Isaiah 45:22. "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God (El), and there is no other.

Isaiah 46:9. Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God (El), and there is no other; I am God (Elohiym), and there is none like me.

Joel 2:27. Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am (the LORD / Yahuah) your God (Elohiym), and that there is no other; never again will my people be shamed.

Yahwah is God and he won't give his glory to another god.

The Greatest Commandment

Mark 12:28. One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus (Yahshua) had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29. "The most important one," answered Jesus (Yahshua), "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, (the Lord / Yahuah) our God (Elohiym), (the Lord / Yahuah) is one (only).

Mark 12:32. "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that (God / Yahwah) is one (only) and there is no other but Him.

John 14:28. "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you love me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

CherubRam said:
John 5
41 I do not accept praise from men.

John 5
41 I dont need [or accept; receive] praise [glory; honor] from [men; people.]

Notice how they are dodging these scriptures.

2ducklow · Jun 28, 2014

THIS said:
God can do anything He wants. If God wanted to come to us in the flesh, then He can do so, and He did.

(KJV) Hebrews 6:18 18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

(KJV) Titus 1:2 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

nu 23.19 god is not a man......

"I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man."Hosea 11:9.

(KJV) 1 Samuel 15:29 29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent

God cannot become a man because God cannot lie, and God said he is not a man, so he cannot become a man. God also said he doesn't change (immutable). So here are two things god cannot do, he cannot change and he cannot be a man and he cannot lie. Plus there are more things God cannot do, such as remember our sins anymore.

God cannot lie but JEsus could have lied. Jesus was tempted in all points as we were, so Jesus was tempted to lie. And Jesus was tempted by Satan to lie because Satan knew Jesus could lie cause he knew Jesus was a man, and not God. So God cannot be a man cause if he ever became a man he would be able to lie, and God cannot lie. so that's another reason. Part of the deal one gets when one becomes a man is the ability to lie, and God cannot lie so he cannot become a man.

THIS said:
God is Spirit. How using two earthy things do you think you can make a comparison?

matthew 13.31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: 32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. 34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

(KJV) John 3:8 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Here God's spirit is comparied to the wind.

THIS · Jun 28, 2014

2ducklow said:
(KJV) Hebrews 6:18 18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

(KJV) Titus 1:2 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

nu 23.19 god is not a man......

"I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man."—Hosea 11:9.

(KJV) 1 Samuel 15:29 29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent

God cannot become a man because God cannot lie, and God said he is not a man, so he cannot become a man. God also said he doesn't change (immutable). So here are two things god cannot do, he cannot change and he cannot be a man and he cannot lie. Plus there are more things God cannot do, such as remember our sins anymore.

God cannot lie but JEsus could have lied. Jesus was tempted in all points as we were, so Jesus was tempted to lie. And Jesus was tempted by Satan to lie because Satan knew Jesus could lie cause he knew Jesus was a man, and not God. So God cannot be a man cause if he ever became a man he would be able to lie, and God cannot lie. so that's another reason. Part of the deal one gets when one becomes a man is the ability to lie, and God cannot lie so he cannot become a man.

[FONT=&quot]Jesus is no mere man.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jesus did not lie.
What human has never sinned?
[/FONT]

2ducklow · Jun 28, 2014

THIS said:
[FONT=&quot]Jesus is no mere man.[/FONT]/quote] Jesus is the last adam, the new creation of God.

THIS said:

[FONT=&quot]Jesus did not lie.

Click to expand...

Jesus could have lied, God cannot lie.

THIS said:

What human has never sinned?
[/FONT]

Click to expand...

The last adam never sinned, but he could have sinned. God cannot sin. the bible doesn't say God did not sin, it says God cannot sin.

THIS · Jun 28, 2014

2ducklow said:
[FONT=&quot]Jesus is no mere man.[/FONT]/quote] Jesus is the last adam, the new creation of God.
Jesus could have lied, God cannot lie.
The last adam never sinned, but he could have sinned. God cannot sin. the bible doesn't say God did not sin, it says God cannot sin.

What human lived their life without any sin ever?

No mere human can live a life without ever sinning.

You are merely speaking over me.

Recognize what I am saying.

jamie2014 · Jun 28, 2014

It was not by Jesus' own strength that he didn't sin.

Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

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