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That's the key, a person's mind.
Paul said, "And I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
(1 Thessalonians 5:23)
Where does a person's spirit come from?
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)What is the purpose of the spirit?
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? (1 Corinthians 2:11)The word for soul is psyche from which we get mind. A person's mind is made up of two elements, a brain and a spirit from God to provide intellect.
The spirit is nonphysical and transcends death, it returns to God. It is imprinted with a person's persona so that at resurrection God can put a person's spirit into a new body and the person is the same as ever.
When a person dies the brain flatlines and all sensory inputs to the brain are nullifed. The person doesn't know they are dead.
ur welcome. I've had the book for a lot of years and have gotten a lot of use out of it. I'd recommend it to anyone, it's a very good resource book.Very interesting stuff!
Thanks for taking the time to post that.
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So, to get back to the point, why do you think mentioning the fact that God is not a mere suit of flesh, somehow says something about the person of the Word of God, who is of the same divine nature as the Father, having always existed.
Did Christ surrender his God status to become human? Or did he simply disguise himself as a human?
I realize Catholics claim that Mary is the mother of God with which you seem to agree, but Luke says the child born to Mary was the Son of God, not God.
Isaiah 7:10-17
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Immanuel Prophecy
10 Moreover the Lord spoke again to Ahaz, saying, 11 Ask a sign for yourself from the Lord your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above.
12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, nor will I test the Lord!
13 Then he said, Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.[a] 15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. 17 The Lord will bring the king of Assyria upon you and your people and your fathers housedays that have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah.
Footnotes:
- Isaiah 7:14 Literally God-With-Us
Did Christ surrender his God status to become human? Or did he simply disguise himself as a human?
I realize Catholics claim that Mary is the mother of God with which you seem to agree, but Luke says the child born to Mary was the Son of God, not God.
What you seem to be thinking is that the term God is like the term "king", for a king can have his title removed.
Luke says along with Isaiah that the child born to Mary is Immanuel, "God with Us."
Most of this is true, but Jesus' humanity was not an outer coating. Jesus is 100% human-all of him, and 100% divine-all of him. Jesus died, but resurrected-when he appeared to people after Easter Sunday, he was, and is, still 100% man, and 100% God. He ate with the apostles, allowed Thomas to poke his finger into Jesus' side, and so on.The flesh of Jesus, is not God.
The flesh of Jesus, is an outer coating.
If a temple of God is destroyed, is God destroyed? No it's just a temple.
Is the temple of God, God? No, it's a temple.
Is the flesh of God, God, not it's just a vessel.
Are you a spiritless vessel?
I am a spirit, with flesh and blood. I am an incarnate spirit.
I'm not an atheist, I don't believe I am body, nor do I believe Jesus is a body, but he wears a body.
The flesh of God was created, just as a temple is created.
The English word creature has the meaning of a created being, however, the English word creature was never used in reference to Jesus.
What you should say is that Jesus is the "Firstborn of creation", and thus imply that Jesus was born. However, even the term firstborn does not equate to a "created being". He was born through the Virgin Mary. God was born. He is "God with us"
Meth Amon Ho Theos, Emmanuel.
Matthew 1:22-23 NKJV
So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel, which is translated, God with us.
So, Jesus is "God with us".
The Word of God was not a created being, he existed before his incarnation.
Do you deny that he existed before his incarnation?
It seems that your claim would rely on that, because the issue you raise deals with birth.
"oh Birth implies being created", well in this case it doesn't. The Logos existed before his incarnation.
Jesus died, God died. By this I only mean his temple became dead, not that his spirit was somehow destroyed. So, the Word of God, his as spirit never was destroyed.
There's nothing in the bible that says God's flesh cannot cease to function.
Polycarp, Clement, and Ignatius were the students of the original disciples. They lived at the turn of the century, before and after 100 AD. They did not mention a trinity or give a description of a trinity in all their writings.
It was not until the second century AD that the idea of a trinity began to take shape in the Gnostic Christian community.
Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus is also known as Tertullian. In the second century he formulated the idea of one substance having three persons.
Origen considered the Son to be not coequal, but derived from the Father whom is the Holy Spirit. Arius would adopt the idea of the Son being derivative of the Father in the third century AD. This eventually lead to a major crisis in the Counsel of Nicea.
Arius gained many followers as he taught that Christ was a created being, created by the Father.
Arians were the followers of Arius.
The creed that came out of the Counsel of Nicea in 325 AD did not explicate the Trinity. It simply proclaimed the divinity of Christ, rejecting Arianism.
There was no resolution on who the Holy Spirit is. That notion would not arise again until the Counsel of Constantinople in 381 AD.
Basilius, also known as Basil, bishop of Caesarea. In the later 3rd century AD, formulated ideas as to what the Holy Spirit was. This was mainly in reaction to Arius who was his enemy doctrinally. Basil and others such as Gregory of Nazianzus and Gregory of Nyssa were encouraged to develop ideas to combat the idea of Arianism. The person who encouraged them was Athanasius who hated Arianism and wanted it done away with.
Philo introduced the idea of a trinity to the Hellenistic Jews of Alexandria.
Philo did not equate the three members of his trinity. He wrote that “the middle person of the three,” was Yahweh, the Father of the Universe, who is uncreated and unbegotten. God, the Father of the Universe was accompanied by two “body-guards”: the creative power and the royal power. God being greater than them. These ideas of Philo made a great impact on Christianity.
More on How the Trinity Doctrine Entered Christianity
God commanded, “You will not make wrongful use of the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.” (Exodus 20:7 NRSV) Because of this command the translators of the Septuagint, did not transliterate the name “Yahweh” into Greek. They believed that the transliteration would have been a misuse of God’s name. Instead, they translated it as “Kyrios,” which in English is the word LORD. So therefore, the word Lord/Kyrios, became the name of Yahweh in Greek. It was a common title for masters or men of authority. Also, the New Testament writers applied it to Jesus. In the end, Jesus and God shared the same name title: Lord/Kyrios.
In the early 4th century, Lactantius (born 240 A.D. died 320 A.D.) wrote: “He {Jesus} taught that God is one {person} and that He {the Father} alone ought to be adored, nor did He {Jesus} ever call himself God.” Lactantius did not recognize a Trinity. He emphasized that Jesus is an “improperly called god,” and must not be worshipped as God.
Wrong interpretations and the distortion of God’s word is what supports the doctrine of the trinity.
When asked, "Which is the most important commandment of all?" Jesus answered, "The most important of all the commandments is, hear, o Israel, the Lord our God is One." (Mark 12:29.)
That is what we find throughout the scriptures:
"Beside me there is no God." (Isa. 44:6.)
"I am God, and there is none else; there is no God beside me." (Isa. 45:5.)
"I am God, and there is none else." (Isa. 46:9.)
"One God and Father of all, who is above all." (Eph. 4:6.)
"Hear, o Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord." (Deut. 6.4.)
"There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." (1 Tim. 2:5.)
"There is but one God, the Father, whom made all things, and us by Himself , and one lord Jesus Christ, by whom we are in.
(1 Cor. 8:6.)
"This is life eternal, that they might know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom He has sent." (John 17:3.)
This last quotation is Jesus speaking; addressing God in prayer as the one true God, and speaking of himself as separate from that one true God.
Additional
Ps 110:1
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit Thou at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool.
(KJV)
Acts 2:34-35
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
(KJV)
1 Cor 15:28
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all, in all.
(KJV)
Heb 1:2-8
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, Whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, "Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to me a Son?"
(New International Version)
Psalm 97
1 The LORD reigns, let the earth be glad;
let the distant shores rejoice.
2 Clouds and thick darkness surround him;
righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne.
3 Fire goes before him
and consumes his foes on every side.
4 His lightning lights up the world;
the earth sees and trembles.
5 The mountains melt like wax before the LORD,
before the Lord of all the earth.
6 The heavens proclaim his righteousness,
and all the peoples see his glory.
7 All who worship images are put to shame,
those who boast in idols—
worship him, all you gods!
John 17:21
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:23
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Isaiah 44:6
"This is what [the LORD / Yahwah] says— Israel's King and Redeemer, [the LORD / God] Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no [God / Elohiym.]
Isaiah 48:11-12
11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this. How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another."Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.
Because KJV Rev 1:11 was found to be a corruption it is not included into other bibles.
KJV Revelation 1:11. Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:
According to history Trinitarianism has its origins in Gnosticism.
There is also a document about a Kabbalist who suggested the Godhead is triune. That was at the same time Yahshua was preaching. Perhaps that is why Yahshua quoted this verse:
Mark 12:29.
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is [one / only.]
Trinity
In the fourth-century, Marcellus of Ancyra declared that the idea of the Godhead existing as three hypostases came from Plato, through the teachings of Valentinus. Valentinus is quoted as teaching that God is three, three prosopa (persons) called the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit:
These men also taught three hypostases, just as Valentinus the heresiarch first invented in the book entitled by him 'On the Three Natures'. It was believed he was the first to invent three hypostases and three persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but he was discovered to have taken this from Hermes and Plato.
Valentinus (also spelled Valentinius) (c.100 - c.160) was known as a early Christian Gnostic Theologian.
It should be noted that Nag Hammadi library Sethian text such as Trimorphic Protennoia identify Gnosticism as also professing Father, Son and feminine wisdom Sophia or as Professor John D Turner denotes, God the Father, Sophia the Mother, and Logos the Son.
Most of this is true, but Jesus' humanity was not an outer coating. Jesus is 100% human-all of him, and 100% divine-all of him. Jesus died, but resurrected-when he appeared to people after Easter Sunday, he was, and is, still 100% man, and 100% God. He ate with the apostles, allowed Thomas to poke his finger into Jesus' side, and so on.
Otherwise, you're right on.
Let's simply. There are four types of beings described in the NT.
There is God, there are gods, there are humans, and there are angels.
Jesus is less than God (he said so) but he is greater than humans or angels.
What you need to do is show that Jesus is ontologically lesser than the Father, not positionally lower.
No, not really. I'll just take his word for it.
Ye have heard how I said unto you, "I go away, and come again unto you."
If ye loved me ye would rejoice because I said, "I go unto the Father, for my Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)
What you have done is ignore several key points I've made, and thus have shown the audience, if we have one, that you cannot properly build a solid case for your belief, as I have done.
Jesus is 100% human-all of him, and 100% divine-all of him. Jesus died, but resurrected-when he appeared to people after Easter Sunday, he was, and is, still 100% man, and 100% God. .
The supreme being is referred to in scripture as the Most High. How many Most Highs do you believe there are.
But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)Man has a head and the man Jesus Christ has a head.
You fabricated false things to no prevail. Of course Thomas Jefferson is dead, not alive, and so on...the steak I ate last night was 100 percent meat, and 100 percent air.
President Obama is 100 percent a man and 100 percent girl.
Thomas Jefferson is 100 percent dead and 100 percent alive.
the atlantic ocean is 100 percent saltwater, and 100 percent fresh water.
a duck is 100 percent meat and 100 percent air.
so since God is a spirit, and Jesus is flesh and bone, (according to scripture) then what you're saying is that Jesus is 100 percent flesh and bone, and 100 percent spirit. which would meant that flesh and bone is spirit.
I asked earlier, but I'll rephrase it for you.
Is Christ worthy of our worship?
Is it right to worship Jesus?
I believe Jesus is worthy of worship but remember we are flesh of his flesh and bones of his bones.
For we are members of his body, of his flesh and of his bones. (Ephesians 5:30)A wife should certainly reverence her husband as Sarah did, but God forbids any gods before him. You need to realize that Jesus is not God and neither are we even though we are one with him in flesh and Spirit.
Paul explained Christ's position relative to God.
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 2:5)The man Christ Jesus is between God and men. He is less than God (he said so) but he is greater than men.
However, we are joint-heirs with him of all creation. Think of it as community property.
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