Trinitarian formula????????

[ARBITER01]

There are examples in the Old Testament of people receiving the Holy Spirit before Christ came and departed. Baptism of water is for repentance of sin. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is for those in the role of leadership, and water is not required for that.

And none of our patriarchs used water to receive The Holy Spirit did they? No they didn't.

Sorry, but you are confused about the role of The Holy Spirit and our salvation. Water was used by Jesus and John the baptist to show symbolically The Holy Spirit's cleansing,...

Act 1:5 for John indeed immersed in water; but ye shall be immersed in the Holy Spirit not many days hence.

The Holy Spirit brings about the forgiveness of our sins, not water. Only He applies the blood of Jesus's sacrifice to our spirits.

 

[MrPolo]

Not trusting a church and it's doctrine is not a fatal flaw, that would be common sense.

If you trust the Bible, then you trust a Church.

 

[GuardianShua]

And none of our patriarchs used water to receive The Holy Spirit did they? No they didn't.

Sorry, but you are confused about the role of The Holy Spirit and our salvation. Water was used by Jesus and John the baptist to show symbolically The Holy Spirit's cleansing,...

The Holy Spirit brings about the forgiveness of our sins, not water. Only He applies the blood of Jesus's sacrifice to our spirits.

The Holy Spirit does bring about the forgiveness of our sins, but first there needs to be repentence.

 

[ARBITER01]

If you trust the Bible, then you trust a Church.

Sorry but no, Jesus has lordship over my life, not a group of people who call their place a church.

Only GOD is true and honest. We are to be obedient to HIM and HIS will, not people and their opinions.

 

[ARBITER01]

The Holy Spirit does bring about the forgiveness of our sins, but first there needs to be repentence.

That is exactly true.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Strawman...

The Church never claimed to have a corner on The Holy Spirit or salvation.

Forgive me...

 

[ARBITER01]

Strawman...

The Church never claimed to have a corner on The Holy Spirit or salvation.

Forgive me...

Oh,..... so everyone outside of the catholic and orthodox church who claims to be born again "can" have The Holy Spirit within them now?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Oh,..... so everyone outside of the catholic and orthodox church who claims to be born again "can" have The Holy Spirit within them now?

The Orthodox Church never said they didn't.



Forgive me...

 

[lionroar0]

Sorry but truth is not gnosticism. None of the disciples were ever water immersed. That, again, is just a tradition, and a false one at that, since it has no scripture support.

We don't know whether they were immersed or not. The Scripures are silent on most of them

We do know that St. Paul was baptised and then received the Spirit. So it your statement that all diciples were not baptised is false.

Yes it is gnosticism where there is a false dualism between the Spirit and the material. Probably not full blown gnosticism but some of it.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

Oh,..... so everyone outside of the catholic and orthodox church who claims to be born again "can" have The Holy Spirit within them now?

What USA said.

Peace

 

[ARBITER01]

The Orthodox Church never said they didn't.



Forgive me...

That's good to know, but I mentioned the catholic church in my statement, not yours, so you're a little ambitious over nothing.

 

[ARBITER01]

We don't know whether they were immersed or not. The Scripures are silent on most of them

We do know that St. Paul was baptised and then received the Spirit. So it your statement that all diciples were not baptised is false.

Yes it is gnosticism where there is a false dualism between the Spirit and the material. Probably not full blown gnosticism but some of it.

Peace

Sorry, but unless you have some example of them being water immersed instead of just immersed, you have no case. You don't get to force the meaning out of it when the Greek is not on your side.

Besides, we are talking about a very highly central theme to your church and many others that are claiming baptismal regeneration. Sort of funny that none of the original 12 or from Paul onward have anything describing a water immersion happening at their conversion during Pentecost. You specifically mentioned it as a requirement for salvation, well why did none of them do it?

You should review your definition of gnosticism and understand it better before you apply it wrongly and go namecalling. It is somewhat presumptuous on your part.

 

[GuardianShua]

Sorry, but unless you have some example of them being water immersed instead of just immersed, you have no case. You don't get to force the meaning out of it when the Greek is not on your side.

Besides, we are talking about a very highly central theme to your church and many others that are claiming baptismal regeneration. Sort of funny that none of the original 12 or from Paul onward have anything describing a water immersion happening at their conversion during Pentecost. You specifically mentioned it as a requirement for salvation, well why did none of them do it?

You should review your definition of gnosticism and understand it better before you apply it wrongly and go namecalling. It is somewhat presumptuous on your part.

It was indeed interesting to note that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit took place without a water Baptism. I have noticed that throughout the bible, Yahwah the Holy Spirit only comes upon those in a leadership role. Not to say in could not happen to a person not in a leadership role. It was just something I noticed throughout the scriptures.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

That's good to know, but I mentioned the catholic church in my statement, not yours, so you're a little ambitious over nothing.

Sorry I must have misread this...

Originally Posted by ARBITER01

Oh,..... so everyone outside of the catholic and orthodox church who claims to be born again "can" have The Holy Spirit within them now?
​

Forgive me...

 

[lionroar0]

Sorry, but unless you have some example of them being water immersed instead of just immersed, you have no case. You don't get to force the meaning out of it when the Greek is not on your side.

Besides, we are talking about a very highly central theme to your church and many others that are claiming baptismal regeneration. Sort of funny that none of the original 12 or from Paul onward have anything describing a water immersion happening at their conversion during Pentecost. You specifically mentioned it as a requirement for salvation, well why did none of them do it?

You should review your definition of gnosticism and understand it better before you apply it wrongly and go namecalling. It is somewhat presumptuous on your part.

St. Paul was not at pentecost. St. Paul came later and he was baptised with water. Which makes your post false.

I never posted it was a requirement for salvation. I said was it a requirement to be a christian. Jesus saves who He wills. Your inserting your own stuff here.

This was not decided by me or an individual. This was decided by the one Christian Church a very long time ago.

Peace

 

[MrPolo]

Sorry but no, Jesus has lordship over my life, not a group of people who call their place a church.

Only GOD is true and honest. We are to be obedient to HIM and HIS will, not people and their opinions.

I agree 100% that only God can be trusted to be infallible. But of course, you believe Matthew, Mark, and Paul, and Jude, etc... wrote God's word in Scripture as He saw fit, no? They are fallible men, yet we believe God successfully worked through them for His purposes, do we not?

As Catholics we believe that when Christ founded a singular "Church" (e.g. Matt. 16:18), He had a purpose for doing so. When His apostles in Scripture decided to appoint successors, we believe they are authentically entrusted in this method to carry the one faith (Eph. 4:5) faithfully by the guarantee of the Spirit. We know Paul told Timothy that they bore this special help of the Holy Spirit (2 Tim 1:13-14). Paul is a man. Timothy is a man. Yet the Spirit will work through them in the context of their teaching capacity. And they would have generations of successors (2 Tim 2:2) in fulfillment of the offices of the Old Testament.

The Church in its essence is Christ (Col 1:24). The Church is not invisible only. There is a visible body. Acts 15, as one example, demonstrates the visible hierarchy of the Church at the Council of Jerusalem. The problem was solved by men. Or properly speaking, it was solved by the Holy Spirit working through men.

So when Jesus said "Whoever hears you, hears Me" (Luke 10:16) we do not recognize their voices merely as men's, but rather as God's agents guided by the Spirit.

Not all walks of Christian faith can be said to be presenting the faith in full because of varying doctrines. We should follow sound doctrine (1 Tim 1:10) and avoid false doctrines (1 Tim 6:3).

So the question remains, which Church not only declares itself to possess the fullness of the faith, but which one among those has bishops, priests, and deacons, as Scripture tells us? And ones whose appointment is traceable back through generations to the Apostles?

There's much more to it than this. But the point of this particular post is to demonstrate that it is erroneous to dismiss a Church's teaching because it is lead by human beings. For behind the true Church, the human leaders will be backed by the Holy Spirit.

 

[ARBITER01]

It was indeed interesting to note that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit took place without a water Baptism. I have noticed that throughout the bible, Yahwah the Holy Spirit only comes upon those in a leadership role. Not to say in could not happen to a person not in a leadership role. It was just something I noticed throughout the scriptures.

The water immersion theme sort of falls out from under folks who claim it when nothing like that is ever documented as happening to any of the disciples in that upper room. Sort of hard to claim it when none of your key players ever went through it, huh?

Also, if you notice, there was 120 disciples there in that room who received The Holy Spirit, not just the initial 12 that originally followed Jesus. There went apostolic succession right out the window.

 

[ARBITER01]

Sorry I must have misread this...



Forgive me...

You didn't go back to my original quote you went off of.

 

[ARBITER01]

St. Paul was not at pentecost. St. Paul came later and he was baptised with water. Which makes your post false.

I never posted it was a requirement for salvation. I said was it a requirement to be a christian. Jesus saves who He wills. Your inserting your own stuff here.

This was not decided by me or an individual. This was decided by the one Christian Church a very long time ago.

Peace

Sorry, but there is no word that describes water alongside that Greek word that translates to "immersion."

This was your original quote,..

One baptism, one faith. If one is not baptised in the Trinitarian Formula then your not Christian.

You made it a requirement for salvation when you said a person cannot be a Christian without it. You're changing your story now.

And no, no church ever decided what was required from GOD to be joined into Christ, GOD did.

 

[ARBITER01]

For behind the true Church, the human leaders will be backed by the Holy Spirit.

That is correct, so when you and your fellow catholics all start doing this commandment from Jesus,..

Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.

...You may start garnering my attention.

As it stands, your institutionalized form of Christianity tries to corner the market on The Holy Spirit through only your leadership, and as we see here in John, Jesus never gave that option to them alone.

You want to keep thinking that your leadership is the only ones that can have The Holy Spirit, fine do so, but GOD will continue to use people outside of your building who refuse to bow to mankind's opinions, whether you like it or not, and whether you wish to recognize it or not.