Trinitarian formula????????

[wildboar]

"Into" the forgiveness of thy sins tends to confuse a lot people, but this is mainly because of a non-translated Greek word, baptise. That is a transliterated word, not a translated english word of the Greek. The correct english translation of that word would be "immersed." So we would have the passage as such,..

I would direct you to Dr. James Dale's multi volume work on the use of the word baptizw in Classical Greek and Christian literature. Even in the Scriptures the word is used to speak of the washing of couches (which were not immersed). Outside of Scripture we find it used to speak of watering the grass. The ceremonial hand washings of the Pharisees are also described as baptisms even though they didn't even involve immersing the hand. The sprinkling of the blood on the Israelites is described as a baptism. After examining its uses throughout Greek literature, James Dale concludes:

Whatever is capable of thoroughly changing the character, state, or condition of any object, is capable of baptizing that object; and by such change of character, state, or condition does, in fact, baptize it.

I think its very likely from the evidence in the early Christian church that various methods of baptism were being used--sprinkling, pouring, or immersing. The application of water joined with the Trinitarian formula is baptism--the amount of water is not important. Immersion may provide a better picture of what happens in baptism but it is not absolutely necessary and baptism is spoken through out Scripture in these various ways.

Act 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be "immersed" each of thee "upon" the name of Jesus Christ "into" the forgiveness of thy sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
We gotta remember what Jesus said was going to happen after His departure,..

Act 1:5 for John indeed immersed in water; but ye shall be immersed in the Holy Spirit not many days hence.

Jesus is talking about Pentecost and He is not saying that people won't be baptized anymore because are baptized after Pentecost and the Holy Spirit accompanies that baptism.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

The idea that the disciples were not baptized because it is not explicitly mentioned is just plain silly. They were administering baptism. The Bible doesn't mention every single thing that people did. I suppose the disciples never urinated either because the Scriptures don't mention it. The Bible never explicitly says that women partook of the Lord's Supper so I suppose they should be excluded.

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

There are cases where a person comes to faith and dies prior to baptism. We do not need to doubt the salvation of such people. But the idea of someone coming to faith and not being baptized because they don't feel like it is an absurdity. It shows a complete lack of faith and lack of desire for God's good gifts. If God's giving out remission of sins why wouldn't someone want it unless they were an unbeliever? Faith is also a gift of God and not dependent on our cognitive ability. God does not tell babies to become adults so that they can become Christians. God tells adults that they have to be like babies in order to be saved.

 

[ARBITER01]

I would direct you to Dr. James Dale's multi volume work on the use of the word baptizw in Classical Greek and Christian literature. Even in the Scriptures the word is used to speak of the washing of couches (which were not immersed). Outside of Scripture we find it used to speak of watering the grass. The ceremonial hand washings of the Pharisees are also described as baptisms even though they didn't even involve immersing the hand. The sprinkling of the blood on the Israelites is described as a baptism. After examining its uses throughout Greek literature, James Dale concludes:



I think its very likely from the evidence in the early Christian church that various methods of baptism were being used--sprinkling, pouring, or immersing. The application of water joined with the Trinitarian formula is baptism--the amount of water is not important. Immersion may provide a better picture of what happens in baptism but it is not absolutely necessary and baptism is spoken through out Scripture in these various ways.

Act 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be "immersed" each of thee "upon" the name of Jesus Christ "into" the forgiveness of thy sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
We gotta remember what Jesus said was going to happen after His departure,..



Jesus is talking about Pentecost and He is not saying that people won't be baptized anymore because are baptized after Pentecost and the Holy Spirit accompanies that baptism.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

The idea that the disciples were not baptized because it is not explicitly mentioned is just plain silly. They were administering baptism. The Bible doesn't mention every single thing that people did. I suppose the disciples never urinated either because the Scriptures don't mention it. The Bible never explicitly says that women partook of the Lord's Supper so I suppose they should be excluded.

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

There are cases where a person comes to faith and dies prior to baptism. We do not need to doubt the salvation of such people. But the idea of someone coming to faith and not being baptized because they don't feel like it is an absurdity. It shows a complete lack of faith and lack of desire for God's good gifts. If God's giving out remission of sins why wouldn't someone want it unless they were an unbeliever? Faith is also a gift of God and not dependent on our cognitive ability. God does not tell babies to become adults so that they can become Christians. God tells adults that they have to be like babies in order to be saved.

When translating the Greek into English,... we are suppose to actually translate it.

Baptism is a "transliterated" word, it does not actually identify the meaning of the Greek word baptízomai, hence why I don't use it.

It is not rocket science to attach a correct English word to the Greek word that fits the context of the surrounding passages, nor does it require a degree to do so.

If people are going to say that water immersion is a requirement for salvation, then they need to provide examples of people being dunked in water and coming up Christians, all of which is not in our bibles.

 

[lionroar0]

Sorry, but there is no word that describes water alongside that Greek word that translates to "immersion."

This was your original quote,..

And??? The point is what??

You made it a requirement for salvation when you said a person cannot be a Christian without it. You're changing your story now.

And no, no church ever decided what was required from GOD to be joined into Christ, GOD did.

I did not say that baptism was a requirement for salvation. That is coming from you.

I did not state, baptism=christian=salvation. That is coming from you.

What I posted was that a person must be baptised to be Christian.

I stated, Baptism=Christian.

And no, no church ever decided what was required from GOD to be joined into Christ, GOD did

And God did it through the one Christian Church.

Peace

 

[GuardianShua]

I agree 100% that only God can be trusted to be infallible. But of course, you believe Matthew, Mark, and Paul, and Jude, etc... wrote God's word in Scripture as He saw fit, no? They are fallible men, yet we believe God successfully worked through them for His purposes, do we not?

As Catholics we believe that when Christ founded a singular "Church" (e.g. Matt. 16:18), He had a purpose for doing so. When His apostles in Scripture decided to appoint successors, we believe they are authentically entrusted in this method to carry the one faith (Eph. 4:5) faithfully by the guarantee of the Spirit. We know Paul told Timothy that they bore this special help of the Holy Spirit (2 Tim 1:13-14). Paul is a man. Timothy is a man. Yet the Spirit will work through them in the context of their teaching capacity. And they would have generations of successors (2 Tim 2:2) in fulfillment of the offices of the Old Testament.

The Church in its essence is Christ (Col 1:24). The Church is not invisible only. There is a visible body. Acts 15, as one example, demonstrates the visible hierarchy of the Church at the Council of Jerusalem. The problem was solved by men. Or properly speaking, it was solved by the Holy Spirit working through men.

So when Jesus said "Whoever hears you, hears Me" (Luke 10:16) we do not recognize their voices merely as men's, but rather as God's agents guided by the Spirit.

Not all walks of Christian faith can be said to be presenting the faith in full because of varying doctrines. We should follow sound doctrine (1 Tim 1:10) and avoid false doctrines (1 Tim 6:3).

So the question remains, which Church not only declares itself to possess the fullness of the faith, but which one among those has bishops, priests, and deacons, as Scripture tells us? And ones whose appointment is traceable back through generations to the Apostles?

There's much more to it than this. But the point of this particular post is to demonstrate that it is erroneous to dismiss a Church's teaching because it is lead by human beings. For behind the true Church, the human leaders will be backed by the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 1:19 "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. 20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
I do not think salvation can be found through genealogy or any record back to the disciples.

 

[ARBITER01]

And??? The point is what??



I did not say that baptism was a requirement for salvation. That is coming from you.

I did not state, baptism=christian=salvation. That is coming from you.

What I posted was that a person must be baptised to be Christian.

I stated, Baptism=Christian.

Sorry, you're not paying attention to what you are saying or you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. When you say a person cannot be a Christian unless they are baptised, you just stated an unbiblical requirement for their salvation, whether you want to realize it or not.

And God did it through the one Christian Church.

Peace

Yes, the one started at Jerusalem that continues today. Sorry, that one is not the one started at Rome that you are championing.

 

[lionroar0]

Sorry, you're not paying attention to what you are saying or you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. When you say a person cannot be a Christian unless they are baptised, you just stated an unbiblical requirement for their salvation, whether you want to realize it or not.

Again I did not state Baptism=Christian=salvation. That's you saying that.

Yes, the one started at Jerusalem that continues today. Sorry, that one is not the one started at Rome that you are championing.

They are the one and the same. I see now y you can't see past your own biases.

Peace

 

[ARBITER01]

Again I did not state Baptism=Christian=salvation. That's you saying that.

Then you don't understand the requirement you are placing on Christians when there is nothing in the bible that states anything of what you are saying. Jesus listed one requirement to be a Christian, being born again, and that has nothing to do with water immersion, nor do we see any of the 120 disciples in the upper room being immersed in water and coming up Christians.

They are the one and the same. I see now y you can't see past your own biases.

Peace

Oh,.... so there are seven church's in the book of revelation, mind telling me which one is the catholic one?

 

[GuardianShua]

Oh,.... so there are seven church's in the book of revelation, mind telling me which one is the catholic one?

Not one of them is Catholic. They are all commandment keeping.

 

[lionroar0]

Then you don't understand the requirement you are placing on Christians when there is nothing in the bible that states anything of what you are saying. Jesus listed one requirement to be a Christian, being born again, and that has nothing to do with water immersion, nor do we see any of the 120 disciples in the upper room being immersed in water and coming up Christians.

I understand perfectly. A very long time ago. The only Christian Church at the time. Spoke what God wanted her to speak through the Holy Spirit with in the Church. The Holy Spirit said that one must be baptised to be a Chrisitian. No "if's", "and's" and "but's". Period not up for discussion. This is the line in the sand. One is either on one side or the other. Baptised here means both by water and by the Spirit. This is when one is born again.

And that Jesus saves whom He wills.

Oh,.... so there are seven church's in the book of revelation, mind telling me which one is the catholic one?

All of them. This is a matter of faith.

Peace

 

[ARBITER01]

I understand perfectly. A very long time ago. The only Christian Church at the time. Spoke what God wanted her to speak through the Holy Spirit with in the Church. The Holy Spirit said that one must be baptised to be a Chrisitian. No "if's", "and's" and "but's". Period not up for discussion. This is the line in the sand. One is either on one side or the other. Baptised here means both by water and by the Spirit. This is when one is born again.

And that Jesus saves whom He wills.

The line in the sand is drawn because you uplift your church and it's teaching over the requirements that Jesus set forth. So there is your difference, one who is born again and one who claims to be born again. The tares and the wheat will be separated in the end. And no, by scripture, no one is a Christian who is not born again by the blood of Jesus first. Water immersion is not a requirement.

All of them. This is a matter of faith.

Peace

Sorry, wrong answer. None of them were, yet Jesus recognizes all of them.

 

[Lukaris]

Let me quote you some truth.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8 :16 For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Each time the individuals needed the Holy Spirit to come upon them for they had either been baptised in the baptism of St. John the baptist or had not been baptised. The baptism they received was the baptism of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the instruction he gave in Matthew 28:19. This is the sacred tradition and to deny this is a tradition of man. You mistake how the Lord instructed to baptise vs. the baptism itself administered by the apostles.

 

[MrPolo]

That is correct, so when you and your fellow catholics all start doing this commandment from Jesus,..



...You may start garnering my attention.

As it stands, your institutionalized form of Christianity tries to corner the market on The Holy Spirit through only your leadership, and as we see here in John, Jesus never gave that option to them alone.

You want to keep thinking that your leadership is the only ones that can have The Holy Spirit, fine do so, but GOD will continue to use people outside of your building who refuse to bow to mankind's opinions, whether you like it or not, and whether you wish to recognize it or not.

This is hardly a response to what I wrote is it? It is your perception of Catholics "cornering the market on the Holy Spirit." That is untrue, nor is it what we claim.

 

[MrPolo]

The water immersion theme sort of falls out from under folks who claim it when nothing like that is ever documented as happening to any of the disciples in that upper room. Sort of hard to claim it when none of your key players ever went through it, huh?

There is nothing to indicate that they didn't, but much to indicate they did.




Acts 10:46-47 Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water?

Col 2:12 You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Rom 6:3-4 Or are you unaware that we who were baptized (including Apostles) into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.

Titus 3:5 ... not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us (including Apostles) through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit.

John 3:5 Jesus answered (Nicodemus), "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."​

Acts 8:36,38 As they traveled along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "Look, there is water. What is to prevent my being baptized?" ... Then he ordered the chariot to stop, and Philip and the eunuch both went down into the water, and he baptized him.

1 Pet 3:20-21 God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Prophesized in Ezekiel 36:25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.​

 

[MrPolo]

Oh,.... so there are seven church's in the book of revelation, mind telling me which one is the catholic one?

No there's one Church. Jesus only founded one Church. Those in Revelation are local churches, regionally part of the One Church.

 

[GuardianShua]

No there's one Church. Jesus only founded one Church. Those in Revelation are local churches, regionally part of the One Church.

The word "church" is a corruption of text. There are seven congregations or assemblies in the world in the last days. They are one in the body of Christ. They are all commandment keeping congregations.

 

[GuardianShua]

There is nothing to indicate that they didn't, but much to indicate they did.




Acts 10:46-47 Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water?

Col 2:12 You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Rom 6:3-4 Or are you unaware that we who were baptized (including Apostles) into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.

Titus 3:5 ... not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us (including Apostles) through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit.

John 3:5 Jesus answered (Nicodemus), "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."​

Acts 8:36,38 As they traveled along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "Look, there is water. What is to prevent my being baptized?" ... Then he ordered the chariot to stop, and Philip and the eunuch both went down into the water, and he baptized him.

1 Pet 3:20-21 God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Prophesized in Ezekiel 36:25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.​

Thank you Mrpolo for taking the time in finding the scriptures about baptism.

 

[ARBITER01]

There is nothing to indicate that they didn't, but much to indicate they did.




Acts 10:46-47 Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water?

Col 2:12 You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Rom 6:3-4 Or are you unaware that we who were baptized (including Apostles) into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.

Titus 3:5 ... not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us (including Apostles) through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit.

John 3:5 Jesus answered (Nicodemus), "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."​

Acts 8:36,38 As they traveled along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "Look, there is water. What is to prevent my being baptized?" ... Then he ordered the chariot to stop, and Philip and the eunuch both went down into the water, and he baptized him.

1 Pet 3:20-21 God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Prophesized in Ezekiel 36:25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.​

Ok now show me which scriptures show the 120 in the upper room being immersed into water and coming out Christians.

Look hard.

 

[ARBITER01]

No there's one Church. Jesus only founded one Church. Those in Revelation are local churches, regionally part of the One Church.

Sorry, no they were not.

 

[wildboar]

Baptism is a "transliterated" word, it does not actually identify the meaning of the Greek word baptízomai, hence why I don't use it.

It is not rocket science to attach a correct English word to the Greek word that fits the context of the surrounding passages, nor does it require a degree to do so.

For reasons I alread explained, "immerse" is an accurate translation of Baptize. I think leaving it transliterated is the best option. The New Testament writers in several instances used a transliterated Aramaic word rather than translating it into Greek. "Amen" is used almost everywhere and it's not an English word. Unless you want to replace "baptize" with a much longer phrase, I think "baptize" does a fine job and people generally have some understanding of what it means although disagree about how it should be done and what it does. I know from the Scriptures that it "saves" and is "for the remission of sins." I also know from what Jesus says that it should be done with a Trinitarian formula.

 

[ARBITER01]

For reasons I alread explained, "immerse" is an accurate translation of Baptize. I think leaving it transliterated is the best option. The New Testament writers in several instances used a transliterated Aramaic word rather than translating it into Greek. "Amen" is used almost everywhere and it's not an English word. Unless you want to replace "baptize" with a much longer phrase, I think "baptize" does a fine job and people generally have some understanding of what it means although disagree about how it should be done and what it does. I know from the Scriptures that it "saves" and is "for the remission of sins." I also know from what Jesus says that it should be done with a Trinitarian formula.

That's nice, but it doesn't fix anything, it keeps the status quo instead.

We wouldn't want to really translate the scriptures, we would want a sort of "churchianity" feel to them and allow certain segments of Christianity to continue with their doctrinal stances under the guise of them, wouldn't we?

I don't think so.

The scriptures are already out where people can translate them themselves, standby for translations outside of the bible teams, there may be one that is actually better in this regard.