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Uber Genius

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Ok. What data do you have?
"My goal here was to get rid of the garbage on both sides of the debate. And help theists and atheists alike get acquainted with the best arguments on both sides."

I have and will continue to introduce arguments for atheism and theism in a different threads as mentioned above I am focusing attention bad arguments not good ones.
 
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KCfromNC

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Actually inductive reasoning leads to hypothesis which is tested and produce a deductive theory.

The issues being discussed are philosophical in nature having no interaction with the physical world.

I'm having a hard time not reading this as "fictional" or "imaginary". What proven method should I use to distinguish real things which have no interaction with the physical word from those which are totally made up?
 
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bhsmte

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"My goal here was to get rid of the garbage on both sides of the debate. And help theists and atheists alike get acquainted with the best arguments on both sides."

I have and will continue to introduce arguments for atheism and theism in a different threads as mentioned above I am focusing attention bad arguments not good ones.
Was curious what data you were referring to. And, how do you determine which arguments are garbage?
 
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Uber Genius

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I'm having a hard time not reading this as "fictional" or "imaginary". What proven method should I use to distinguish real things which have no interaction with the physical word from those which are totally made up?
Your problem seems to be thinking that the categories f knowledge are physical (scientific) and "fictional" or "made up."

I think you are looking for the term "conceptual."

Math (2+2=4) is conceptual.

Philosophical and theological arguments are also conceptual. We don't want to say that they are fiction. Unless we are talking about there ontological status. IN that case one might be a platonic fictionalist. That is to say belief that numbers are just human representations or conceptions and don't exist.

But when we are talking about whether God exists we can and often use abductive arguments which argue that God's existence best accounts for certain data such as the fine-tuning to the universe for life, or the best explanation of the origin of the information in our DNA.

Conceptual arguments but it doesn't mean they don't represent things in the real world.

Unless you want to wipe out the majority of theoretical astrophysics since the early 1970s, based on mathematical modeling not scientific experimentation, I would rethink the fully-loaded cost of your proposal.
 
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Uber Genius

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Was curious what data you were referring to. And, how do you determine which arguments are garbage?
Given the quotes at the bottom of each of your posts I'm a little surprised at the question.

But rhetorical tricks and logical fallacy have been cateloged since Aristotle.

Determine them the same way you would any bad argument.

To be sound the argument needs to follow from the premises.

And the premises need to be more likely true then then not.

Finally, good premises must be compelling. Held to be true by most rational people. Now we see here why cosmological and teleological arguments have been so winning, and ontological ones have not been.

Type in, "logical fallacies," into google and you will be on your way to discovering the rhetorical tricks both sides play in this debate.
 
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KCfromNC

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Your problem seems to be thinking that the categories f knowledge are physical (scientific) and "fictional" or "made up."

I think you are looking for the term "conceptual."

Math (2+2=4) is conceptual.

It is also something made up by humans, so I don't get the objection.

Philosophical and theological arguments are also conceptual. We don't want to say that they are fiction.

You might not want to say that, but that's hardly an argument that anyone else should care about them.

Conceptual arguments but it doesn't mean they don't represent things in the real world.

Nor does it imply that they do. Especially when you were just saying that the things they supposedly talk about don't interact with the physical world.

Unless you want to wipe out the majority of theoretical astrophysics since the early 1970s, based on mathematical modeling not scientific experimentation, I would rethink the fully-loaded cost of your proposal.

I don't see the connection between this and talk about supernatural non-interacting god concepts.

Still wondering : What proven method should I use to distinguish real things which have no interaction with the physical word from those which are totally made up?
 
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ToddNotTodd

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And the premises need to be more likely true then then not.

Finally, good premises must be compelling. Held to be true by most rational people. Now we see here why cosmological and teleological arguments have been so winning, and ontological ones have not been.

Actually, an argument is sound only if the premises are actually true, not more likely true. And it doesn't matter if the premises are "held to be true by most rational people" for an argument to be sound. If everyone on the planet believes a premise to be true, and it isn't, the argument using the premise isn't sound.
 
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bhsmte

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Given the quotes at the bottom of each of your posts I'm a little surprised at the question.

But rhetorical tricks and logical fallacy have been cateloged since Aristotle.

Determine them the same way you would any bad argument.

To be sound the argument needs to follow from the premises.

And the premises need to be more likely true then then not.

Finally, good premises must be compelling. Held to be true by most rational people. Now we see here why cosmological and teleological arguments have been so winning, and ontological ones have not been.

Type in, "logical fallacies," into google and you will be on your way to discovering the rhetorical tricks both sides play in this debate.

What do my quotes have to do with any of this? Please explain and tie that all together please.
 
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KCfromNC

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Okay then. I can't make you read philosophy 101 text.

Nor have you shown any reason I'd need to.

So now numbers, scientific concepts and theoretical physics being based on conceptual, "made up things," (to use your words) don't represent things n the real world!

If that's the conclusion you drew from what I wrote, perhaps I'm not the one who needs to go back to remedial studies on the subject. Go back and reread what I actually wrote. Ask questions if you don't understand. But pretending that this response has anything to do with what I said isn't particularly honest.
 
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bhsmte

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Amazingly I continue to run into theists and atheists alike who have no knowledge of philosophy or that we are making inductive arguments in support of the claim that either, "There is a god," or "There is no god."

More troubling is the complete lack of any attempt o study claims. Instead I get made up fakery masked as knowledge to fool those not fortunate enough attend college.

Claims misrepresenting requirements for premises (mistaking inductive for deductive arguments)

Claims that concepts are fiction and therefore can't tell us about the "real" world (nice equivocation by the way).

Ignorance that logical fallacies destroy the truth value of philosophical arguments.

I feel like I'm running a daycare here.

LOL.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Stop faking it!

No one who has had a philosophy 101 class would write your comment and you claim to have an undergrad in philosophy.

If you disagree with me, it might be a good idea to explain why, lest it just appears like sour grapes on you're part.
 
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KCfromNC

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So instead of admitting you have no clue what is going on you are faking knowledge.

It seems since your epistemic method was self-refuting (perhaps because you don't understand that this is a philosophical discussion), we are at an impasse until you gain the requisite knowledge to avoid such dubious claims.
Best of luck and by all means read the other "Tricks" threads, as you will need hat info to improve the soundness of your arguments.
I'm not sure what you're even objecting to. And given you can't seem to provide any actual criticism of what I've said, I'm not convinced you know either. Is this really how philosophy works? No wonder it never seems to lead anywhere productive.
 
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Uber Genius

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Actually, an argument is sound only if the premises are actually true, not more likely true. And it doesn't matter if the premises are "held to be true by most rational people" for an argument to be sound. If everyone on the planet believes a premise to be true, and it isn't, the argument using the premise isn't sound.


Good Informal Logical Arguments

"Within informal logic the simplest criteria for judging arguments is an informal analogue of soundness. It requires that an argument’s premises be acceptable and that its conclusion follow from these premises. We may call the latter “informal” validity (leaving open the question how it is best understood) and these two criteria the “AV” (Acceptability, Validity) criteria for assessing arguments.

Following Johnson & Blair (1977, 1994) many informal logicians understand informal validity in terms of relevance and sufficiency, making the criteria for good argument acceptability, relevance and sufficiency (the “ARS” criteria). The premises of an argument count as relevant to its conclusion when they provide SOME support for the conclusion and sufficient when they provide enough support to establish it as plausible. Relevance can be contrasted with irrelevance, which occurs in various instances of non sequitor, as occurs in the case of “straw man” and “red herring” arguments, which are common in ordinary discourse."

"Some support," not a certitude of every individual on the planet and omniscience on the part of same.

Informal Logic (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

As with deduction, the inferential claim in an inductive argument should be examined to see if the premises indeed makes the conclusion MORE LIKELY to be true or acceptable. Here are some examples of induction:
P1 - The windows are broken.
P2 - There are footprints with mud on the floor.
P3 - Some jewels and electronics are missing.
A - Some intruders entered the house and burglarized it.

It’s been observed that the farther galaxies are from the Earth, the faster they are moving away.

P1 - It has been observed that the farther galaxies are from the Earth, the faster they are moving away.
A - The universe is expanding.

Deduction and Induction

Anyone seeing a trend?

Premises that give "some support," and are, "more likely to be true,"

Not universally accepted as true. If this were the case we wouldn't have inductive and Abductive arguments that are possible true in all of science!

So again 51% likely to be true as opposed to their contradictory, would be the lower bound.

Now I could have premises that only few people thought were good, and the conclusions follow from those premises but they would be insufficient to convince anyone who didn't already hold that view.

"An inductive argument is an argument that is intended by the arguer to be strong enough that, if the premises were to be true, then it would be unlikely that the conclusion is false. So, an inductive argument's success or strength is a matter of degree, unlike with deductive arguments. There is no standard term for a successful inductive argument, but this article uses the term "strong." Inductive arguments that are not strong are said to be weak; there is no sharp line between strong and weak."

Deductive and Inductive Arguments | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

"If the premises were to be true."

Inductive arguments are strong or weak based on relevance and sufficiency of premises qua their conclusions.

Although these features are not philosophy 101, they are known without even looking it up to people with philosophy degrees or those who majored in philosophy.


Your misunderstood the role of premises in inductive arguments for the role in deductive. An elementary mistake.
 
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bhsmte

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If :
1. You are too lazy to look up terms;
2. Make no attempt to understand an argument;
3. Make every attempt to engage fallacy rather than rationality;
4. Fake expertise by using philosophical language without any understanding of the underlying concepts;

You will get three strikes and then be "Ignored."

I'm more than willing to help those who have contrary views shared them in a maximally rational and valid way.

Further, I think it is a very rational position to hold an atheistic view.

But I'm too old to babysit.
LOL
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Good Informal Logical Arguments

"Within informal logic the simplest criteria for judging arguments is an informal analogue of soundness. It requires that an argument’s premises be acceptable and that its conclusion follow from these premises. We may call the latter “informal” validity (leaving open the question how it is best understood) and these two criteria the “AV” (Acceptability, Validity) criteria for assessing arguments.

Following Johnson & Blair (1977, 1994) many informal logicians understand informal validity in terms of relevance and sufficiency, making the criteria for good argument acceptability, relevance and sufficiency (the “ARS” criteria). The premises of an argument count as relevant to its conclusion when they provide SOME support for the conclusion and sufficient when they provide enough support to establish it as plausible. Relevance can be contrasted with irrelevance, which occurs in various instances of non sequitor, as occurs in the case of “straw man” and “red herring” arguments, which are common in ordinary discourse."

"Some support," not a certitude of every individual on the planet and omniscience on the part of same.

Informal Logic (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

As with deduction, the inferential claim in an inductive argument should be examined to see if the premises indeed makes the conclusion MORE LIKELY to be true or acceptable. Here are some examples of induction:
P1 - The windows are broken.
P2 - There are footprints with mud on the floor.
P3 - Some jewels and electronics are missing.
A - Some intruders entered the house and burglarized it.

It’s been observed that the farther galaxies are from the Earth, the faster they are moving away.

P1 - It has been observed that the farther galaxies are from the Earth, the faster they are moving away.
A - The universe is expanding.

Deduction and Induction

Anyone seeing a trend?

Premises that give "some support," and are, "more likely to be true,"

Not universally accepted as true. If this were the case we wouldn't have inductive and Abductive arguments that are possible true in all of science!

So again 51% likely to be true as opposed to their contradictory, would be the lower bound.

Now I could have premises that only few people thought were good, and the conclusions follow from those premises but they would be insufficient to convince anyone who didn't already hold that view.

"An inductive argument is an argument that is intended by the arguer to be strong enough that, if the premises were to be true, then it would be unlikely that the conclusion is false. So, an inductive argument's success or strength is a matter of degree, unlike with deductive arguments. There is no standard term for a successful inductive argument, but this article uses the term "strong." Inductive arguments that are not strong are said to be weak; there is no sharp line between strong and weak."

Deductive and Inductive Arguments | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

"If the premises were to be true."

Inductive arguments are strong or weak based on relevance and sufficiency of premises qua their conclusions.

Although these features are not philosophy 101, they are known without even looking it up to people with philosophy degrees or those who majored in philosophy.

Your misunderstood the role of premises in inductive arguments for the role in deductive. An elementary mistake.

I think you've mistaken my position. Even before I got my degree in Philosophy many years ago, I agreed with the critiques of "informal logic" and the idea that the word "sound" can be applied to informal arguments.

If you haven't read Massey, and you may not have if you haven't had a lot of philosophy training, you might look up his critiques of informal logic.

For now, I'll just hold my opinion that informal logic can't have the rigor that formal logic does, and therefore shouldn't have the word "sound" applied to any informal argument.
 
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KCfromNC

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If :
1. You are too lazy to look up terms,
2. Make no attempt to understand an argument,
3. Make every attempt to engage fallacy rather than rationality,
4. Fake expertise by using philosophical language without any understanding of the underlying concepts,

you will get three strikes and then be "Ignored."

Seems like this isn't an exhaustive list, though.
 
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quatona

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bravo.

Rare breed anymore. Who are your favorite atheists
Favourite atheists? What´s that supposed to mean? You almost make it sound like atheism were a belief system or some other complex thing.
and how did you come to reject the four horseman of New Atheism that have been such pop icons for the last two decades?
Reject? I haven´t even read them. I don´t see how the fact that one lacks a belief requires books, pop icons, horsemen, or favourites, in the first place.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Favourite atheists? What´s that supposed to mean? You almost make it sound like atheism were a belief system or some other complex thing.

Reject? I haven´t even read them. I don´t see how the fact that one lacks a belief requires books, pop icons, horsemen, or favourites, in the first place.

I'm finding that some theists really want atheism to have "leaders" or "heroes" or something. It's probably because it's easier to criticize atheism as a whole if there are representatives that can be criticized. It's not logical, but it's easier.

It's similar to how some theists insist that atheism necessarily should be defined as "a belief that no gods exist", even after most if not all of us are saying that's not what our position is.

Straw men are just so easy to knock down you know...
 
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