Trickle Down Economics

[OldWiseGuy]

I've often thought the earlier moniker for trickle-down was more descriptive; it used to be called "Horse and Sparrow" economics. 'If you feed the horse enough oats, some will pass through to the road for the sparrows.' Of course no adherent to this philosophy minds that the sparrows are receiving horse dung.

Money with rich people's poop on it. Arrrrg!

 

[Ken-1122]

Iron most likely. Brass is a possibility. Metalworking predates Noah's day, in bible history.

Brass bends too easily, iron is too heavy to be used as a frame on something designed to float on water.

None are replicas of the biblical ark. Not even artists want to replicate what the ark actually looked like.

Did you even read the links I provided? The Creationist guys who built those arks both built them to scale according to information from the Bible, and there are others who have built replicas as well. Care to try again?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Brass bends too easily, iron is too heavy to be used as a frame on something designed to float on water.

Iron rivets to reinforce joints, not for a frame.

Did you even read the links I provided? The Creationist guys who built those arks both built them to scale according to information from the Bible, and there are others who have built replicas as well. Care to try again?

They look nothing like the biblical ark. The ark was a building, not a ship. If they built it like it really looked people would be horrified. Those 'replicas' belong in an amusement park, as they are quite amusing.

 

[Ken-1122]

Iron rivets to reinforce joints, not for a frame.

So what is going to stop the wood frame from flexing as wood naturally does?

They look nothing like the biblical ark.

So what did the biblical ark look like? Do tell!

The ark was a building, not a ship. If they built it like it really looked people would be horrified. Those 'replicas' belong in an amusement park, as they are quite amusing.

By definition, a building is a land structure with a foundation attacked to the ground. A vessel is a structure designed for travel in water. The bible does not describe the ark as a building (structure attached to the ground) but as a vessel (structure designed for water). Do you agree?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So what is going to stop the wood frame from flexing as wood naturally does?

The sheer mass of the thing.

So what did the biblical ark look like? Do tell!

A huge building, covered with pitch (tar). Pretty frightening I'm guessing.

By definition, a building is a land structure with a foundation attacked to the ground. A vessel is a structure designed for travel in water. The bible describes the ark as a vessel.

The ark was a large 'box', heavily reinforced. It was designed to be watertight and to float, not to navigate like a ship.

 

[JackRT]

Any wooden boat will flex in the wave action and this flex is more and more pronounced the larger the ship structure. This is what causes leakage --- the ships hull planks flex and open gaps no matter how well caulked. The Biblical flood seems to have been about 4300 years ago. This is well before the iron age and at the very beginning of the bronze age. A viable ship the size of the hypothetical ark was simply beyond the technological capabilities of the day. Aside from that, without any propulsion or stabilization system, it would have pitched and yawed and rolled sickeningly causing even more flexing and leaking.

 

[Ken-1122]

The sheer mass of the thing.

the mass is the problem. The larger the vessel, the more flexing taking place; if it were smaller a 100% wooden vessel would float.

A huge building, covered with pitch (tar). Pretty frightening I'm guessing.

And how is that different than what those Creationist guys built?

The ark was a large 'box', heavily reinforced. It was designed to be watertight and to float, not to navigate like a ship.

I said vessel; not ship. And the problem is floating not navigation.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Any wooden boat will flex in the wave action and this flex is more and more pronounced the larger the ship structure. This is what causes leakage --- the ships hull planks flex and open gaps no matter how well caulked.

I'm sure the exterior siding of the ark was such that it wouldn't leak. Spline joinery, once swelled with water is virtually watertight.

The Biblical flood seems to have been about 4300 years ago. This is well before the iron age and at the very beginning of the bronze age.

Genesis 4:22, long before the flood.

22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.

A viable ship the size of the hypothetical ark was simply beyond the technological capabilities of the day. Aside from that, without any propulsion or stabilization system, it would have pitched and yawed and rolled sickeningly causing even more flexing and leaking.

It's sheer mass would cause it to float very low in the water, almost submerged, which would mitigate these movements.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

the mass is the problem. The larger the vessel, the more flexing taking place; if it were smaller a 100% wooden vessel would float.

You're still conflating ship and ark. If God wanted a ship he would have said so.

And how is that different than what those Creationist guys built?

Theirs bears little resemblance the biblical ark.

I said vessel; not ship. And the problem is floating not navigation.

A 'vessel' can be many things.

 

[Ken-1122]

You're still conflating ship and ark. If God wanted a ship he would have said so.

No, you’re just trying to change the subject. Any vessel of this size is not going to be seaworthy if it is going to have a frame of wood.

Theirs bears little resemblance the biblical ark.

Again; how are they different? How do you know this?

A 'vessel' can be many things.

The inability of this thing being able to float is just one of many problems with the Noah’s Ark story.

So water covered the entire planet huh? Was it fresh water or salt water. If fresh water, how did the salt water life survive? And how did the fresh water and salt water separate themselves after the water rescinded? How did the land plants survive?
If the Earth was covered with water for 100 days, what did the animals eat? What refrigeration was used to keep the meat and vegetation from spoiling so the animals could eat during this period?

So the Ark landed on a Mountain in Middle East Asia? How did all of those Kangaroos and Kola Bears get to Australia without leaving a trail?

That’s all for now.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

No, you’re just trying to change the subject. Any vessel of this size is not going to be seaworthy if it is going to have a frame of wood.

Can you point to the study that has determined that the ark, as described in the bible, was not seaworthy.

Again; how are they different? How do you know this?

The bible says ark man thinks ship . When man envisions a big ship he constructs a ship (in his mind) built according to traditional shipbuilding designs and methods. The ark was a building, not a ship. That's where one must begin in order to determine whether the ark would float or sink. This has never been done because an accurate model has never been envisioned.

The flood itself must also be considered, to determine the conditions the ark would likely have encountered. This too has never been done.

 

[Ken-1122]

Can you point to the study that has determined that the ark, as described in the bible, was not seaworthy.

I don’t know of any such study, but there are studies that explain why a ship of that size cannot be seaworthy, there are records of people trying to build ships smaller than this one without success, and there are records of people building replicas of that ship as described in the bible and the challenges they faced. That is where I’ve got my information. Where did you get yours concerning this issue?

The bible says ark man thinks ship

Do you really think you are qualified to determine what goes on inside of everybody else's head? The best you can do is determine what goes on inside of YOUR head. The best case you can make is;
when the Bible says ark YOU think ship

When man envisions a big ship he constructs a ship (in his mind) built according to traditional shipbuilding designs and methods.

Again; you are not qualified to determine what goes on in someone else's mind.

The ark was a building, not a ship.

What is your definition of a building?

That's where one must begin in order to determine whether the ark would float or sink. This has never been done because an accurate model has never been envisioned.

Can you provide a scenario where this building would float considering the problems I pointed out?

The flood itself must also be considered, to determine the conditions the ark would likely have encountered. This too has never been done.

Could you consider the flood itself and answer the last questions I asked on post #70?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I don’t know of any such study, but there are studies that explain why a ship of that size cannot be seaworthy, there are records of people trying to build ships smaller than this one without success, and there are records of people building replicas of that ship as described in the bible and the challenges they faced. That is where I’ve got my information. Where did you get yours concerning this issue?

From the original story. No one has ever built a large rectangular building with one door and one window, covered inside and out with tar. All such replicas were built according to very fanciful notions of Medieval and Renaissance artists.

Do you really think you are qualified to determine what goes on inside of everybody else's head? The best you can do is determine what goes on inside of YOUR head. The best case you can make is;
when the Bible says ark YOU think ship

By continually referring to the ark as a ship that is clearly what is inside your head.

Again; you are not qualified to determine what goes on in someone else's mind.

See above post.

What is your definition of a building?

A building has floors (stories), rooms, windows, and doors as per the story.

A ship has decks, cabins, portals, and hatchways. None of these terms appear in the story. A ship must have the ability to navigate. The ark had no such ability.

Can you provide a scenario where this building would float considering the problems I pointed out?

The ark was 'lifted up' and 'went on the flood'. That should tell you everything.

Could you consider the flood itself and answer the last questions I asked on post #70?

We have to get the ark/ship thing settled first.

 

[FenderTL5]

Fellas' just go look at Noah's Youtube Channel, Then check out Noah's ark blog.
There's photos and plans right there on his website for all to see.

 

[Ken-1122]

From the original story. No one has ever built a large rectangular building with one door and one window, covered inside and out with tar. All such replicas were built according to very fanciful notions of Medieval and Renaissance artists.

Where are you getting your information that such a building would float?

By continually referring to the ark as a ship that is clearly what is inside your head.

I didn't say ship, I said vessel. You are the one who keeps bring ship into the conversation

A building has floors (stories), rooms, windows, and doors (as per the story).
(A ship has decks, cabins, portals, and hatchways.)

What's the difference?

The ark was 'lifted up' and 'went on the flood'. That should tell you everything.

No, that does not explain how it would be able to float. Try again?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I didn't say ship, I said vessel. You are the one who keeps bring ship into the conversation

What's the difference?

If you can't be serious were done here.

 

[Ken-1122]

If you can't be serious were done here.

You've made it clear that for obvious reasons you are not going to answer my questions. I agree; we're done.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Whilst hard work and ingenuity should be rewarded, there needs to be a reasonable welfare state and access to education, food and basic housing is the hallmark of a developed society.

All have access to education, which is the agency that provides the 'development' of society, and it's free. If the poor want to succeed they should pay attention in school, do their homework, and thus 'develop' themselves as citizens.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Trickle down theory tries to claim the harder people work to prop up the businesses and wealthy, the more wealth will be generated, then because of this, the worker will get pay rises, better benefits as there is more money being generated.

Of course, it never works, as those who own everything just keep the wealth as their own profit, to store up or to invest in more schemes to make themselves more money, they never let it "trickle down", the harder people work, the more they take, that's the reality.

The way people at the bottom get more is by banding together and Syndicalism, as the only power people really have is to withdraw their labour, that generates the wealth, just people need to just use this method to get what is fair and not over use it.

The reality is that labor is subject to the same law of supply and demand that products are. We have ensured the failure of the working class by importing more workers, which causes everyone to work for less. They have brought their house down on their own heads.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Trickle down specifically directs benefits to the investor class.

Trickle down is just a part of the general circulation of money. "A dollar goes from hand to hand...." What the hand, of the rich or of the poor, does with it makes the difference.