Tribulation

[HisdaughterJen]

does that put the rapture at around 2011, does the Bible tell us when the rapture happens or could it be anytime?

The moment that the sun/moon darken/stars fall (the beginning of the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath/seal #6) is what catches people by surprise. The church is removed just prior or right at that moment. (Seal #5) The only people given white robes in Revelation is the bride.

The wrath of God is the casting down of the devil (stars fall) whom God allows to reign on earth for a short time for God's purposes, the two witnesses who warn people, the trumpet judgments, the bowls of wrath followed by Christ coming with the angels to destroy all the evil and the army formed against Christ. It's the 7th seal followed by the coming of Christ.

Rev 10 appears to be a description of a warning to unbelieving Israel at the time that the two witnesses are prophesying that the resurrection and catching away of the church really happened and then it happens to the two witnesses. It will "turn their stomach" figuratively because some will realize what they've missed...Christ and His promises given to believers.

 

[zeke37]

the length has been shortened, from 7 years to 5 months....the season .....i think it will be real soon.....Rev9)

 

[get it right]

the length has been shortened, from 7 years to 5 months....the season .....i think it will be real soon.....Rev9)

that 5 month period is only the first woe of the fifth trumpet, where people are tormented for five months.
it gets much worse, the second woe involves a third of the people of the world being killed. rev9

 

[zeke37]

IMO the 5 months is the entire length....inclusive of the other trumps...same time IMO...

but remember that no one can be physically killed....spiritually killed/in bed with Satan/fooled completely, YES...BUT NOT PHYSICALLY...God has set provision for that time....those with the mark can only be hurt/deceived by Satan, not killed...and the rest opf the people are those with out the mark of the beast(elect/chosen/zadok) and they are protected by the Holy Spirit for a testimony against the devil/Satan/son of Perdition....

Luke21:12-19



spiritual vs physical...rightly dividing the Word of God

 

[tansy]

The points made by all of you are really interesting. You're bringing up some stuff which I hadn't even considered.
I tend to feel that Jesus will come back half way through the last 7 year period, but that is only from a general reading of scripture, so what you're all saying might hopefully give me a better undrerstanding. Thanks.

 

[get it right]

IMO the 5 months is the entire length....inclusive of the other trumps...same time IMO...

but remember that no one can be physically killed....spiritually killed/in bed with Satan/fooled completely, YES...BUT NOT PHYSICALLY...God has set provision for that time....those with the mark can only be hurt/deceived by Satan, not killed...and the rest opf the people are those with out the mark of the beast(elect/chosen/zadok) and they are protected by the Holy Spirit for a testimony against the devil/Satan/son of Perdition....

Luke21:12-19



spiritual vs physical...rightly dividing the Word of God

luke21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

The points made by all of you are really interesting. You're bringing up some stuff which I hadn't even considered.
I tend to feel that Jesus will come back half way through the last 7 year period, but that is only from a general reading of scripture, so what you're all saying might hopefully give me a better undrerstanding. Thanks.

Something else to think about...

Daniel mentions a seven year period but Revelation only mentions 3.5 years...unless the 3.5 years of the two witnesses and the 3.5 years of the reign of the beast are consecutive instead of the same.

Ezekiel 38/39 mentions a seven year period for burning weapons but 7 months of that is burying the dead invaders...on a 360 day calendar, 2300 days (from Daniel 8) is 7 months (and 10 days) short of seven years. Coincidence or do the passages align?

Joel 2 describes an invasion of Israel when the sun/moon darken/stars fall (seal #6) that God steps in and deals with. Is it the same as Ezek 38/39?

The false prophet uses fire from heaven to convince people that the beast is God. Why would that convince people? God uses fire from heaven to destroy the Gog hordes in Ezek 38/39 and people credit God for doing so.

Revelation and 2 Thess 2 never mention "abomination of desolation" in speaking of the anti-christ's proud, blasphemous declaration. Is it the same thing as in Daniel and Matt 24?

 

[tansy]

Yes, very interesting points Jen. It's trying to align different bits of scripture, isn'tn it...tricky.
It's like the people at the time of Christ when He was on earth....maybe the people then couldn't quite get all the scriptures together to understand them properly...they had a few misunderstandings. It's often only in hindsight everything fallsn into place.
Still' I don't think God would have had it all written down if we were'nt to havbe at least some understanding of it.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Col3_11n12]

I voted 20. The infrastructure to chip implant the whole world just isn't there yet. But in today's day and age, things can change in a heartbeat. Look at the internet. I remember back in 1989, cell phones were an expensive and new thing. Now look at today, 20 years later--they're everywhere. At least, in many places.

I also believe Global Warming is real, allowed by God, and will eventually culminate in many of the plagues and famine mentioned in Revelation. I guesstimate that to really cause trouble in the 10-20 year range.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Yes, very interesting points Jen. It's trying to align different bits of scripture, isn'tn it...tricky.
It's like the people at the time of Christ when He was on earth....maybe the people then couldn't quite get all the scriptures together to understand them properly...they had a few misunderstandings. It's often only in hindsight everything fallsn into place.
Still' I don't think God would have had it all written down if we were'nt to havbe at least some understanding of it.

Yes, I agree...and more understanding will come as the time draws near as Daniel 12 says. I also agree that God wrote things down the way He did so that we would seek and search and go to Him for understanding.

 

[nephilimiyr]

I know no-one can know for sure, but just wondered whenabouts people might think the Great Trib will start (and why)

I voted 20 years but actually it is not exact.

I do believe in a 7 year period. I'm not dogmatic in this but I believe the Church age will last 2,000 years. With errors made in our calendar, Jesus being born actually anywhere from 4 to 6 BC with most putting the year at 4 BC. We're actually 2,012 or 2,014 years since his birth. Could also even be 2,013 years.

Jesus started his ministry at 30 years of age and it lasted 3 to 3 1/2 years. So somewhere during the year 33 AD the Church age started. 2,000 years after on our calendar would be the year 2033, now subtract the 4 to 6 years and you have 2027 or 2029. I believe the start of the 7 year great tribulation period is at or near the 2,000 year aniversary of the church age.

When the Church is raptured out I believe that marks the end of the Church age. I tend to believe in a pretribulation rapture so that is how I figured the above times, however, if the rapture takes place at the end or even after the tribution, I would have to say that the tribulation period starts anywhere from 2020 to 2022.

Now this is mearly my opinion. There is no real rule or law saying that the Church age has to be exactly 2,000 years. I do have my reasons to think this though but for all I know Jesus could come this very instant and rapture the Church if the Father wanted him to, and that is the way I try to live my life.

 

[tansy]

Now this is mearly my opinion. There is no real rule or law saying that the Church age has to be exactly 2,000 years. I do have my reasons to think this though but for all I know Jesus could come this very instant and rapture the Church if the Father wanted him to, and that is the way I try to live my life.

Yes, we have to keep our hope in Him and try and be ready, whether it is through death or through His coming for us

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I voted 20 years but actually it is not exact.

I do believe in a 7 year period. I'm not dogmatic in this but I believe the Church age will last 2,000 years. With errors made in our calendar, Jesus being born actually anywhere from 4 to 6 BC with most putting the year at 4 BC. We're actually 2,012 or 2,014 years since his birth. Could also even be 2,013 years.

Jesus started his ministry at 30 years of age and it lasted 3 to 3 1/2 years. So somewhere during the year 33 AD the Church age started. 2,000 years after on our calendar would be the year 2033, now subtract the 4 to 6 years and you have 2027 or 2029. I believe the start of the 7 year great tribulation period is at or near the 2,000 year aniversary of the church age.

When the Church is raptured out I believe that marks the end of the Church age. I tend to believe in a pretribulation rapture so that is how I figured the above times, however, if the rapture takes place at the end or even after the tribution, I would have to say that the tribulation period starts anywhere from 2020 to 2022.

Now this is mearly my opinion. There is no real rule or law saying that the Church age has to be exactly 2,000 years. I do have my reasons to think this though but for all I know Jesus could come this very instant and rapture the Church if the Father wanted him to, and that is the way I try to live my life.

I agree with your line of reasoning. But, who's to say what year it actually is. For example, the Ethiopians kept their own count of years and just celebrated y2k on September 11/12, 2007 which would mean that the 3rd millennium just started on September 11/12, 2008.

Most scripture points to the "Church age" being 2000 years and Christ returning on the morning of the 3rd Day.

Exodus 19:10-20 is one such passage.
The Good Samaritan parable is another.
Hosea 6 is a strong one as well:

Hsa 6:2After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence.

With the way the "New World Order" is no longer a conspiracy theory but out in the open as well as the signs of the times, I don't think we have much longer. I wouldn't be surprised if we only have a few weeks to a few months left.

 

[nephilimiyr]

I agree with your line of reasoning. But, who's to say what year it actually is. For example, the Ethiopians kept their own count of years and just celebrated y2k on September 11/12, 2007 which would mean that the 3rd millennium just started on September 11/12, 2008.

Exactly, and it's this not truely knowing what our own date is with absolute certainty that should tell everyone that setting dates is fruitless because it would be totally impossible.

Personally, I don't believe it matters what our calendar says because in the biblical sense I consider Jesus' birth the start of year #1. I then adjust what our calendar says to it. There is no real way to know exactly when Jesus was born, the day or year.

However, we do know from Josephus (a respected Jewish writter at the time) that Herod fell ill after a solar eclipse and soon died. We also know that soon after Jesus was born, Mary and Joeseph was instructed to travel to Egypt and stay there until after herod died. We also know that Herod instructed his soldiers to kill all boys 2 years old and under in Bethlehem. We can only speculate that this means this event happend about 2 years after Jesus' birth. What we don't know is how much time elapsed after Herod gave his order to kill the baby boys and the eciplse.

Now solar eciplses can be traced back very accurately useing our modern calendar and they have placed this eciplse in the year 2 BC. This is why alot of people believe that Jesus was born in the year 4 BC. So you see, it really doesn't matter what our calendar says or what the Ethiopian calendar says because we have the reported death of Herod soon after the eciplse that happend in 2 BC.

And again, if that is true and the Church age started 33 years later, that makes our year 2029 close to being the 2,000 year aniversary of the Church. I believe it's about as acurrate as we're ever going to get.

Most scripture points to the "Church age" being 2000 years and Christ returning on the morning of the 3rd Day.

Exodus 19:10-20 is one such passage.
The Good Samaritan parable is another.
Hosea 6 is a strong one as well:

Hsa 6:2After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence.

Yeah, I know, I just didn't want to get into all of that last night. Thanks for saying it though.

With the way the "New World Order" is no longer a conspiracy theory but out in the open as well as the signs of the times, I don't think we have much longer. I wouldn't be surprised if we only have a few weeks to a few months left.

You could be right, as I said in my first post, I'm not dogmatic about any of this but I do firmly believe that we don't have much time to go. There's alot of work for us christians to do though and I'd rather get to doing the things I think are God's priority rather than mine. This certainly is a interesting subject to discuss from time to time though.

One question for yah, what do you think about the year 2012 and the Mayan calendar and what it might mean for us today?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Exactly, and it's this not truely knowing what our own date is with absolute certainty that should tell everyone that setting dates is fruitless because it would be totally impossible.

Personally, I don't believe it matters what our calendar says because in the biblical sense I consider Jesus' birth the start of year #1. I then adjust what our calendar says to it. There is no real way to know exactly when Jesus was born, the day or year.

However, we do know from Josephus (a respected Jewish writter at the time) that Herod fell ill after a solar eclipse and soon died. We also know that soon after Jesus was born, Mary and Joeseph was instructed to travel to Egypt and stay there until after herod died. We also know that Herod instructed his soldiers to kill all boys 2 years old and under in Bethlehem. We can only speculate that this means this event happend about 2 years after Jesus' birth. What we don't know is how much time elapsed after Herod gave his order to kill the baby boys and the eciplse.

Now solar eciplses can be traced back very accurately useing our modern calendar and they have placed this eciplse in the year 2 BC. This is why alot of people believe that Jesus was born in the year 4 BC. So you see, it really doesn't matter what our calendar says or what the Ethiopian calendar says because we have the reported death of Herod soon after the eciplse that happend in 2 BC.

And again, if that is true and the Church age started 33 years later, that makes our year 2029 close to being the 2,000 year aniversary of the Church. I believe it's about as acurrate as we're ever going to get.

I completely agree.
Does the church age begin with Jesus birth, ministry, or death? I originally thought ministry but now I think birth because of people believing in him as the Savior from the time of his birth, not only the wise men but the man and woman who came up to Joseph and Mary and prophesied over Jesus as a baby. It could've even began from conception with Mary's belief...I don't know...

Yeah, I know, I just didn't want to get into all of that last night. Thanks for saying it though.

You could be right, as I said in my first post, I'm not dogmatic about any of this but I do firmly believe that we don't have much time to go. There's alot of work for us christians to do though and I'd rather get to doing the things I think are God's priority rather than mine. This certainly is a interesting subject to discuss from time to time though.

Yes!

One question for yah, what do you think about the year 2012 and the Mayan calendar and what it might mean for us today?

Well, at first I thought it was just interesting but now, with scientists saying that a polar reversal could happen both in the sun and the earth around that time, I'm wondering if there's a little more to it. The earth goes through cycles and it looks like the Mayans may have kept a record of it...regardless of any beliefs they attached to it.

http://www.gvnr.com/74/3.htm
"NASA Claims Polar Shift Due In 2012"

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/1753.asp



With all the fanaticism about "global warming" and all natural events blamed on this alleged phenomenon, I'm thinking that something is coming and the devil is trying to distract/deceive from the truth.

Add to that the Hadron Collider at CERN where they are studying electromagnetism among other things (like black holes)...and the pole reversal is magnetic in nature, then something may be amiss.

According to the 2nd link, the magnetic pole reversal causes some interesting and very prophetic scenarios:

"- the earth's crust will experience increasing volcanoes, tectonic movements, earthquakes and landslides

- Earth's Magnetosphere will weaken and Cosmic Radiation from Sun will increase many folds making radiation hazards like cancer and so on inevitable
- Large Asteroids will be drawn towards the Earth - the Earth's gravitational field will experience a change though no one knows how it will change"

Now, if you stop and think about all this and compare it to the Bible, these exact things are predicted to happen during the judgment and wrath of God, while the beast is reigning. (the trumpets and the bowls)
trumpet 1 = hail and fire hurled on the earth
trumpet 2 = mountain thrown into the sea (asteroid?)
trumpet 3 = blazing star (asteroid?) turns waters bitter
trumpet 4 = sun/moon/stars struck so light is depleted...but only 1/3...could it be an asteroid field that the earth spins through as it turns?
trumpet 5 = satan releases beast out of the abyss, weird locusts
trumpet 6 = four angels released, war
bowl 1 = sores on people with mark (if mark is electomagnetic, then sores caused by problems with that?)
bowl 2 = salt water to blood
bowl 3 = fresh water to blood
bowl 4 = sun scorches
bowl 5 = darkness
bowl 6 = Euphrates dried up to gather beasts armies to fight against Christ
trumpet7/bowl7 = lightning, thunder, massive earthquake, huge hail

My question is...do these things happen leading up to the reversal or as a result of the reversal? I would think it would be leading up and including the reversal...and after the reversal, things should settle down...I would think.

With all the hype about global warming and blaming it on humans and the major catastrophic events that have happened...Earthquake/Tsunami, major hurricanes...I'm betting that the polar reversal is beginning.

Magnetic North and true North are not the same. Does anyone know if Magnetic North is on the move any further?

Oooh...here's a good link with a map that shows how much it's moved lately:
http://science.howstuffworks.com/question782.htm

Here's another one:

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8ED22880&show_article=1


What is interesting about the article above is that it says this:

"The magnetic poles are part of the magnetic field generated by liquid iron in Earth's core and are different from the geographic poles, the surface points marking the axis of the planet's rotation. "

If there is "liquid iron" in the Earth's core, and the "turning of water to blood" is a leaking of iron into the water where it oxidizes and can asphixiate humans and animals, then a leaking of iron into the water from the Earth's core could influence a polar reversal...I would think...hmmm....

Rev 16:3The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead man, and every living thing in the sea died.
Rev 16:4The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood.

Rev 11:6These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

Massive amounts of iron in the water would certainly look/smell/taste like blood.

 

[nephilimiyr]

I completely agree.
Does the church age begin with Jesus birth, ministry, or death? I originally thought ministry but now I think birth because of people believing in him as the Savior from the time of his birth, not only the wise men but the man and woman who came up to Joseph and Mary and prophesied over Jesus as a baby. It could've even began from conception with Mary's belief...I don't know...

I don't know for sure either but I have ruled out at his birth and at the start of his ministry. There's 3 ways in how I could see it. One is at the time of his resurrection on Easter morning, the day He was taken up to heaven, and the day of pentecost when the Holy Spirit comes. Anyone of these scenarios I think fits the bill as the start of the Church, maybe a good poll thread to ask around here?

Well, at first I thought it was just interesting but now, with scientists saying that a polar reversal could happen both in the sun and the earth around that time, I'm wondering if there's a little more to it. The earth goes through cycles and it looks like the Mayans may have kept a record of it...regardless of any beliefs they attached to it.

http://www.gvnr.com/74/3.htm
"NASA Claims Polar Shift Due In 2012"

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/1753.asp



With all the fanaticism about "global warming" and all natural events blamed on this alleged phenomenon, I'm thinking that something is coming and the devil is trying to distract/deceive from the truth.

Add to that the Hadron Collider at CERN where they are studying electromagnetism among other things (like black holes)...and the pole reversal is magnetic in nature, then something may be amiss.

According to the 2nd link, the magnetic pole reversal causes some interesting and very prophetic scenarios:

"- the earth's crust will experience increasing volcanoes, tectonic movements, earthquakes and landslides

- Earth's Magnetosphere will weaken and Cosmic Radiation from Sun will increase many folds making radiation hazards like cancer and so on inevitable
- Large Asteroids will be drawn towards the Earth - the Earth's gravitational field will experience a change though no one knows how it will change"

Now, if you stop and think about all this and compare it to the Bible, these exact things are predicted to happen during the judgment and wrath of God, while the beast is reigning. (the trumpets and the bowls)
trumpet 1 = hail and fire hurled on the earth
trumpet 2 = mountain thrown into the sea (asteroid?)
trumpet 3 = blazing star (asteroid?) turns waters bitter
trumpet 4 = sun/moon/stars struck so light is depleted...but only 1/3...could it be an asteroid field that the earth spins through as it turns?
trumpet 5 = satan releases beast out of the abyss, weird locusts
trumpet 6 = four angels released, war
bowl 1 = sores on people with mark (if mark is electomagnetic, then sores caused by problems with that?)
bowl 2 = salt water to blood
bowl 3 = fresh water to blood
bowl 4 = sun scorches
bowl 5 = darkness
bowl 6 = Euphrates dried up to gather beasts armies to fight against Christ
trumpet7/bowl7 = lightning, thunder, massive earthquake, huge hail

My question is...do these things happen leading up to the reversal or as a result of the reversal? I would think it would be leading up and including the reversal...and after the reversal, things should settle down...I would think.

With all the hype about global warming and blaming it on humans and the major catastrophic events that have happened...Earthquake/Tsunami, major hurricanes...I'm betting that the polar reversal is beginning.

Magnetic North and true North are not the same. Does anyone know if Magnetic North is on the move any further?

Oooh...here's a good link with a map that shows how much it's moved lately:
http://science.howstuffworks.com/question782.htm

Here's another one:

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8ED22880&show_article=1


What is interesting about the article above is that it says this:

"The magnetic poles are part of the magnetic field generated by liquid iron in Earth's core and are different from the geographic poles, the surface points marking the axis of the planet's rotation. "

If there is "liquid iron" in the Earth's core, and the "turning of water to blood" is a leaking of iron into the water where it oxidizes and can asphixiate humans and animals, then a leaking of iron into the water from the Earth's core could influence a polar reversal...I would think...hmmm....

Rev 16:3The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead man, and every living thing in the sea died.
Rev 16:4The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood.

Rev 11:6These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

Massive amounts of iron in the water would certainly look/smell/taste like blood.

Thanks for all of that, I'll certainly look into this. I was recently on youtube watching some video teaching on this so I thought I'd ask you.

I haven't read everything here that you post yet but I think what astronomers are saying is the on Dec. 21st 2012 the earth and sun will come into alignement with the center of our galaxy and some scientists are saying they don't know what might happen but it's possible for a pole shift, but they really don't know if anything is going to happen. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

[/size]
I don't know for sure either but I have ruled out at his birth and at the start of his ministry. There's 3 ways in how I could see it. One is at the time of his resurrection on Easter morning, the day He was taken up to heaven, and the day of pentecost when the Holy Spirit comes. Anyone of these scenarios I think fits the bill as the start of the Church, maybe a good poll thread to ask around here?

Well, you're right. I'm reminded of Jesus' words to his disciples that "upon this rock (belief that Jesus is the Christ) I will build my church"...so, it seems that it would've started with...hmmm...yeah...I don't know...possibly when people received the Holy Spirit.
Yeah, that'd be a good poll.
On that note, the white-robed great multitude who has "washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb" and who has come out of great tribulation .... well, I believe the great multitude is the church and the great tribulation is the wars, famines, plagues, pestilences, persecution, and martyrdom that we have all endured for the last 2000 years..... how long have people been able to wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb? ...since the death/resurrection of Jesus, right?

Thanks for all of that, I'll certainly look into this. I was recently on youtube watching some video teaching on this so I thought I'd ask you.

I haven't read everything here that you post yet but I think what astronomers are saying is the on Dec. 21st 2012 the earth and sun will come into alignement with the center of our galaxy and some scientists are saying they don't know what might happen but it's possible for a pole shift, but they really don't know if anything is going to happen. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Well, I can't imagine that an alignment of the earth and sun with the center of the galaxy would cause any trouble....but I'm no astrophysicist.
I mean, planets align all the time without recourse, right?

It would have to be more than an alignment that would cause trouble, I would think....like the magnetic field or even a major event like an earthquake that would make the earth wobble off course and into the path of something else.

Isa 24:20The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.


We know that the earthquake/tsunami a few years ago altered the course of the earth so that a day is shorter and the shape of the earth has changed. A few more like that and the earth could be in big trouble.


http://www.livescience.com/environment/050112_earth_shape.html

 

[tansy]

Absolutely fascinating stuff...it's too late at night for me to look at all these links, but it's all worth thinking about

 

[zeke37]

The points made by all of you are really interesting. You're bringing up some stuff which I hadn't even considered.
I tend to feel that Jesus will come back half way through the last 7 year period, but that is only from a general reading of scripture, so what you're all saying might hopefully give me a better undrerstanding. Thanks.

Hi, I am curious why you feel that Jesus will come back 1/2 way through the last 7 years? What scripture led you to that conclusion? (Jesus comes back at the end of the last week (however long that is) and it is Satan that arrives in the midst of the Week....not Christ)