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Tribulation

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by gospel, Dec 27, 2001.

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  1. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    > ...pray that you may be able to escape...

    Note that Jesus is speaking to the same people in Luke 21:8-35 that he is speaking to in Luke 21:36.

    I believe we will escape the entire tribulation and stand before the Son of Man (Luke 21:36) only if we die before the tribulation starts (Isaiah 57:1, 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21-23). Many of us will go through the great tribulation (Luke 21:31; Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 18:4, 20:4).

    Isaiah 57:1 says "the righteous perish." It is in their dying that the righteous are "taken away from the evil to come" (Isaiah 57:1). To die is gain for a Christian (Philippians 1:21).


    > ...GOD ALWAYS REMOVED HIS FAITHFUL ONES BEFORE HE
    > SHOWED HIS WRATH KEEP LOOKING UP...

    Note that nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials (Revelation 15:1).

    The vials contain God's wrath, yet not one of them is directed at Christians. I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day (Daniel 12:12).


    > ...In Revelations 19, The Armies of Heaven are following him...

    Most of the church will be returning "with" Christ from the 3rd heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:14), as most of it will have died before or during the tribulation. But in Revelation 19:14 "heaven" is the 1st heaven, the sky, where Jesus is revealed to the nations, as in Matthew 24:30's "heaven."

    I believe the purpose of the rapture is to gather the resurrected dead and the transformed living (1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) all together in the sky with Jesus so that we can be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before Armageddon.

    This is why the wedding's consummation isn't announced until immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-14). I believe that after we've been judged and married, we'll all get on our white horses, the clouds will part, "heaven" will be "opened" (Revelation 19:11), and we'll all descend with Christ to the battle (Revelation 19:14-15), and then land in Jerusalem for the supper (Revelation 19:9, Isaiah 25:5-9).


    > ...instead of a shout which raises the dead and calls those who
    > are alive to meet Him, a Sword proceeds from His mout smiting
    > the Nations...

    Note that every description of the 2nd coming and rapture doesn't include every element of it. For example, we don't find the shout or the voice of the archangel of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 anywhere in 1 Corinthians 15:52, nor do we find the white horse of Revelation 19:11 or Jesus' setting foot on the Mount of Olives of Zechariah 14:4 anywhere in Matthew 24:29-31. Do some then believe that Revelation 19 and Matthew 24:29-31 are two separate events?


    > ...Rev.17:6-" I saw the women was drunk with the blood of the
    > saints, the blood of those who bore the testimony to Jesus.
    > When I saw her, I was greatly astonished." >>> Some
    > protection this would be, no thanks, you can keep your
    > protection. The people that believe this have no hope,
    > because they give it away...

    What is our blessed hope?

    "In hope of eternal life"
    "That blessed hope"
    "The hope of eternal life"
    (Titus 1:2, 2:13, 3:7)

    How can the blessed hope be mutually exclusive with going through tribulation?

    "We glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope" (Romans 5:3-4).

    "Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation" (Romans 12:12).

    "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable" (1 Corinthians 15:19).

    Don't lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) when the rapture doesn't happen before the tribulation. Don't lose the hope even if you find yourself at the point of death in the great tribulation, for our hope for eternal life in Jesus Christ goes beyond any suffering in this life and any dread of death (Philippians 1:21-23, 1 Corinthians 15:19, John 12:25, Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15).


    > ...they should have trusted Jesus when the grace of God was
    > free. It's not free if you have to give up your mortal
    > life....

    Some believe Revelation 14:13 means that Christians in the tribulation will be saved only by dying. But is this what the verse itself says? Isn't Revelation 14:13 saying that those who die in the Lord will be blessed because they can rest from their earthly labours for the Lord? Do some believe people who die unsaved can be saved after death? And do they apply the same saved-only-by-dying standard to those in Revelation 2:10? If not, why not?


    > ...is the tribulation a literal seven-year period of time to take
    > place in the future?...

    Regarding the length of the coming tribulation, most Christians believe it will be 7 years. But I don't believe the Bible itself says this, and that Daniel 9:27 only refers to a 7-year peace treaty.

    I believe Daniel 11:23 refers to this same treaty, and that the great Middle East war of Daniel 11:13-19 has to happen before this treaty is signed. I expect this war to begin about 3 years before the treaty, so that the tribulation could last about 10 years. This war could be the 2nd seal in Revelation 6:3-4, beginning the tribulation.

    A 10-year tribulation may be represented in Revelation 2:10, where Jesus says "ye shall have tribulation 10 days," and typified in Daniel 1:14, where Daniel was "proved for 10 days." I believe each day could stand for a year, as in Ezekiel 4:6, where God says "I have appointed thee each day for a year," and in Numbers 14:34, where he says "each day for a year."


    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  2. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
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    > ...a discussion of matters which, by the admission of so many
    > people here, are not actually all that relevant to the Christian
    > faith and life...

    Many Christians believe we shouldn't waste our time discussing when the rapture is going to happen in relation to the tribulation. But I believe knowing the rapture's timing is important because if some Christians believe with all their heart that Jesus has promised them a pre-trib rapture, couldn't "many be offended" (Matthew 24:9-12, compare Matthew 13:20-21) if it doesn't happen?

    "The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith" (1 Timothy 4:1), and this departure from the faith (the falling away or apostasy) will happen before Jesus comes to rapture us (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3).

    I believe Jesus told us everything we'd need to know beforehand for a good reason, so that we wouldn't be deceived or lose faith (Mark 13:23, Hosea 4:6). I believe the pre-trib doctrine could be setting the church up for great disappointment and confusion and the falling away from the faith (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-12, 2 Thessalonians 2:3).

    I believe we all must begin in these days to face and get free of any fear of the coming tribulation and any fear of death (Revelation 2:10, 21:7-8; 1 Peter 4:12-13, Hebrews 2:15, Luke 12:4, Philippians 1:21-23).


    > ...He will not come to the earth for the rapture. We will meet
    > Him in the air, in the clouds...

    Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, some believe it refers to a U-turn coming of Jesus whereby he comes only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven. But Matthew 24:29-31 doesn't show Jesus landing on the earth either. Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 is also not the 2nd coming?

    1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't show Jesus returning to heaven. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will "come" just as he left: he won't come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, just as he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again. He went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven, he will come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.


    > ...The tribulation can not begin, untill the Church age, or the
    > Age of Grace has come to an end...

    Where does the Bible speak of "the Church Age" and where does it say it ends before the tribulation? Isn't the church forever? (Ephesians 3:21)

    How could Christians living after the cross and after the resurrection and after Pentecost (i.e. not OT) who have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) not be in his Grace?

    Why are the "saints" in Revelation 13:10 and Revelation 14:12 not considered to be the church, but the "saints" in Revelation 19:8, 1 Corinthians 14:33, Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 1:12, Jude 3 are?

    Does it say the Church Age ends in Revelation 6 and then resumes in Revelation 19?


    > ...This is a time when God will restore His covenant with Isreal...

    Some believe Israel still under a different "dispensation." But I believe the old covenant has been abolished (Hebrews 7:18). Under the new covenant, there's no distinction between Jewish and Gentile believers (Romans 10:12). The church has been joined to spiritual Israel (Ephesians 2:12, 19), which isn't based on genetics (Galatians 3:29, Romans 9:8).

    Some say the tribulation isn't for the church, but for Israel only. But how do they define "Israel" and how do they define "church?" When they say "Israel," are they referring to only "Israel after the flesh" (1 Corinthians 10:18), that is, to only those physically descended from Jacob? If so, are they saying the great multitude of us Christians in the tribulation "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" (Revelation 7:9, 14) are all "Israel after the flesh?"

    And when they say "church," are they referring to only Gentile Christians? Are they saying Jewish Christians aren't part of the church?

    True, Biblical dispensationalism does not divide, but unites: "In the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ" (Ephesians 1:10). "Ye have heard of the dispensation... That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body" (Ephesians 3:2, 6). Fellowheirs with who? Of the same body as who?

    Who are the two parties Paul refers to when he says: "Hath made both one... to make in himself of twain one new man?" (Ephesians 2:14-15)

    "Ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel... ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints" (Ephesians 2:12, 19).


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  3. edjones

    edjones Active Member

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    Hi post , I'm pre, cause thats what the Bible teaches.

    Job 11:2 Should not the multitude of words be answered? and should a man full of talk be justified?

    ed
     
  4. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

    328
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    I'm pretrib, studied it, worked it out. There is much on here I'd like to comment on but some posts are so long and there are so many that it makes it difficult to even begin. Rather than refute line by line or counter scripture for scripture I'll just make a few brief points.

    LAST TRUMP= in hebrew a shofar, and we really need to look at the definition of 'last'. Last does not necessarily mean final, it can be last in a series. Also look at Jewish holidays and the part that the shofar played. It is absolutely essential to have an understanding of Jewish feasts to have an adequate understanding of prophecy. If you look at passover you'll see the prophecy of Jesus' death. Other feasts are just as prophetic. Find out what they mean. Is there a holiday that falls on 'a day that no man knows'? The answer is yes. You think this might have prophetic significance?

    WEDDING CEREMONIES= we really need an understanding of biblical wedding customs. Do a little research and you'll find that God's law prohibits a situation where Jesus gets married, slaughters tens of thousands, then sits down to dinner. Can't happen, won't happen. Not convincedyet? Study the wedding feast parables, they take place in the Father's house, not the bride's.

    3rd coming of Jesus: Get out your concordance and look at all the passages dealing with the coming of Messiah. Compare verse for verse and see if you can actually account for all the different details with two comings. Still in doubt? Look at God's judgements. Paul speaks of two, one of the righteous, one of the wicked. Jesus speaks of a judgment of both righteous and wicked at the same time, Revelation speaks of judgement of nations... Count them, reconcile them, you'll find we have several judgements at several different times. Why?

    I apologize if I sound pushy, I just want to provide some things to think on and things to study.
     
  5. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +8
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Hello Willis Deal,
    I'm with you brother. I agree. Good points there. I sure am glad it's your turn, this stuff care wear a guy down. LOL
     
  6. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    hmmm , you make some interesting points willis.

    good stuff.

    thanks , I will take a look at those things that you suggested.

    celtic
     
  7. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    One other point, 666, look it up in your concordance. The number is six HUNDRED sixty six, ie the number between 665 and 667, NOT three seperate sixes (6-6-6).

    I strongly urge anyone who is interested in prophecy to take a deep breath, say a prayer, read the bible, and look up the meanings of the original Greek and Hebrew words.
     
  8. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    When scripture says The 2nd coming of Christ, we take it to mean the rapture. When we talk of Christ coming to set up his millenial kingdom at amageddon, we are talking of a 3rd coming, or he came twice already, then he comes again another time to set up HIs kingdom which equals 3 times total.
     
  9. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

    504
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    Ok so I guess everyone is telling me that the 2nd coming is Not the rapture. The 2nd coming begins at the battle of armageddon's defeat. That would make a pre trib rapture scripturally correct. But what if I'm not pre trib? What if I'm open minded?
    How does one read Rev? Does it read chronologically? is it to mean that first the 7 seals are broken, then 4 angels, then 7 trumpets, then 7 vials? Or, are they intertwined such as, a seal, a trumpet, the 2nd seal, the second trumpet, etc?
    The 1st 4 chapters are written to churches in those days written & apply to us today also. (see the church with the false prophet jezebel). The scirptures are very clear that the rapture will occur at the 7th trump.(11:15). Now the only thing I know is that the rapture will occur after the other 6 trumps. as far as the seals & vials go, I don;t think rev is written in chronological order. This is evident from rev. 21: 9 WHERE an angel still has the 7 vials with the plagues in it. Rev therefore must be written in the order in which it was revealed to John. NOt necessarily chronologically. Anyone want to explain Rev. 21:9?
     
  10. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    United States
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    US-Libertarian
    Dug this one out of the grave too
     
  11. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    Thunder, you must have spent the night digging up bones. How in the world do you expect me to refute spiritual viewpoints, and post trib viewpoints on a half dozen ongoing threads? :)
     
  12. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +8
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Hi Willis,
    Why start a new one, when we have the old?? They are not like covenants ya know, LOL. See ya friend
     
  13. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
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    Christian
    edjones:
    Note that the Bible nowhere teaches the rapture is before the tribulation. Jesus said he would come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul said Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

    *******
    Willis Deal:
    I've heard others say that the last trump is "the last of the Church Age." But is there a verse which refers to "the Church Age" and says it ends before the tribulation? Isn't the church forever? "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Ephesians 3:21).

    What were the earlier trumpets of "the Church Age?" And why would Paul call the "last trumpet" last if there was to be another resurrection trumpet sounded for others in the church after the last one?

    The Bible says our resurrection occurs immediately before the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17), when Christ comes (1 Corinthians 15:23) at the trumpet's sounding (1 Corinthians 15:52). Jesus comes at the trumpet's sounding in Matthew 24:29-31, "after the tribulation."

    I believe the sounding of the trumpet and our resurrection and gathering together in Matthew 24:29-31 will be the "last trump" in that it will be the last fulfillment of Numbers 10:7: "When the congregation is to be gathered together, ye shall blow," and it will also fulfill Isaiah 27:12-13: "Ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown," and Zechariah 9:14: "And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the LORD God shall blow the trumpet," and 1 Thessalonians 4:16: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise," and Ezekiel 37:12: "O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel," and 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, 52: "Even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming... at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised."

    What are the scriptures or ancient Jewish sources which call the feast of trumpets the last trump, and how does this require the rapture be before the tribulation?

    Some teach that the Jewish feasts of the Old Testament require a pre-trib rapture, but can they cite any scriptures or ancient Jewish sources about the feasts that would require a pre-trib rapture?

    What are the scriptures or ancient Jewish sources which call the feast of trumpets "that day or hour no man knows?"

    Some teach that purported ancient Jewish wedding customs require a pre-trib rapture, but they don't cite the ancient Jewish sources for any wedding customs that would require a pre-trib rapture.

    Be careful not to be led astray by any "traditions" or teachings of men that are not in the Bible itself (Colossians 2:8, 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

    Some say Jesus can't marry the church right before Armageddon because he would violating his law:

    "When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business: but he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken" (Deuteronomy 24:5).

    I believe this doesn't pose a problem for at least four reasons:

    Firstly, I believe the OT laws have been abolished:

    "There is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof" (Hebrews 7:18).

    "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law" (Hebrews 7:12).

    So I believe Deuteronomy 24:5 has been disannulled.

    Secondly, even when the OT laws were still in effect, they weren't arbitrary, but had purposes behind them for the good of man:

    "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath" (Mark 2:27).

    "I will have mercy, and not sacrifice" (Matthew 12:7).

    I believe the purpose of the old law against sending a newly married man to war was to prevent his separation from his new bride. In the case of Jesus, the purpose of the old law is in no way violated, for his making war after his marriage doesn't separate him from us, as we will be descending to Armageddon right behind him:

    "The marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white.... Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb... And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war... And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean" (Revelation 19:7, 8, 9, 11, 14).

    Thirdly, the man Jesus is the Sovereign God. No man can make him go to war, or "charge him with any business" or prevent him from being "free" in any way, so how does Deuteronomy 24:5 apply to him?

    Fourthly, Jesus is Lord of the law:

    "Have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple... For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day" (Matthew 12:5, 6, 8).

    Is it possible that all of the following verses speak of the same coming and the same gathering together? "The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him" (2 Thessalonians 2:1). "The Son of man coming in the clouds... with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:30-31). "We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord... with the trump of God... shall be caught up together" (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). "They that are Christ's at his coming... at the last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:23, 52). Is there more than one 2nd coming, more than one gathering together of the church, more than one last trump?

    I believe the sheep and goat judgment of all nations (Matthew 25:32-46) is not until the white throne judgment after the millenium (Revelation 20:11-15), when I believe the sheep will enter the eternal kingdom prepared beforehand (Revelation 21:2-3), and the goats will enter everlasting punishment (Revelation 20:15). Note that only the Antichrist and False Prophet go into everlasting punishment at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20).


    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  14. LyleMetsker

    LyleMetsker <font color=green><b>V.I.P. Member</b></font>

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    +0
    Here is my definition of the three "T" words:

    Trial - You've broken a kingdom law and you're being hauled before God's court for sentencing.

    Test - You haven't done anything wrong, but God is proving to onlookers that you won't deny Him just because He allows you to suffer.

    Tribulation - A long span of both tests and trials!

    Links to over 100 Christian message boards at:
    http://KingdomGospel.com
    Home of the Christian Message Board Network!
     
  15. Nick_Loves_Abba

    Nick_Loves_Abba Bulls On Parade

    +45
    Christian
    I haven't read all 6 pages, I have not much time right now. But I would like to state something. I dunno if it has been stated before.

    The church is mentioned 16 times from Rev 1-4. And not once again till rev 29.

    (Or somewhere around 29. Geeze I need to get my facts straighter LoL :D)
     
  16. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    We find Christians referred to throughout Revelation (6:11, 7:3, 7:14, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:1-4, 14:12-13, 15:2, 20:4). There can be no Christians outside of the church, for "there is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith" (Ephesians 4:4-5), which body is the church: "the church, which is his body" (Ephesians 1:22-23).

    How could saints living after the cross and after Pentecost who have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) not be in his body?


    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  17. RKF

    RKF Member

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    +0
    What needs to be understood is that the tribulation is Satan's wrath not God's. God's wrath begins when he comes back to establish his kingdom on earth
     
  18. RKF

    RKF Member

    408
    +0
    Also don't look at the book of Revelations as being in order like abc... But bca.....
     
  19. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    How do you figure that the tribulation is satan's wrath?
     
  20. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
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    Christian
    Satan can create natural disasters (Job 1:16, 19) and cast stars down (Revelation 12:4), and he has great wrath (Revelation 12:12). In Job 1:16 they think "the fire of God is fallen from heaven" when really it's from Satan, who was allowed by God at a certain time to bring it about, and not because God was angry with Job in any way.

    How could God be responsible for the killing of Christians in the tribulation when he is the one judging those who do? "Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments" (Revelation 16:5-7).

    Note that nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials (Revelation 15:1).

    The vials contain God's wrath, yet not one of them is directed at Christians. I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day (Daniel 12:12).


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