transubstantiation unsubstantiated substantially :P

[Acts24Fourteen]

...Now your second point seems to be the Syriac Orthodox shoukd reject the ancient Eucharistic doctrine because the EVIL ROMANS believe in it...

Actually it is not evil "romans", it is the "ism" that is unscriptural. The OP and following which were given by myself, were not based in someone else's theology as comparison, but by the word of God itself as the standard, which you avoid [of which all easily discern], by each continuing reply which does not address those things therein.

 

[Wgw]

Actually it is not evil "romans", it is the "ism" that is unscriptural. The OP and following which were given by myself, were not based in someone else's theology as comparison, but by the word of God itself as the standard, which you avoid [of which all easily discern], by each continuing reply which does not address those things therein.

There is no ism in the Orthodox Church.

Now, what points do you think I am voiding, because I wuld be happy to address those.

 

[BobRyan]

There were in fact no Proestants in the Dark Ages.

Wycliff, Huss, Jerome -- would differ.

As it happens the Orthodox were not involved in the Inquisition

Then they have no reason to complain that such facts of history are still facts of history.

. I am not personally aware of any incidens where the Syriac Orthodox Church even killed a heretic; I do not think we ever did, which is more than many Protestant denominations can boast, and actually as far as I am aware a point of common ground between us and the SDA.

Nice to know. Perhaps you also know if the Orthodox church in Syria was one of those groups claiming that Christians that keep the Bible Sabbath are "spies for Israel" as was said in Syria about the Seventh-day Adventist church around the time of the 1970's and 80's.

Sorta like the "Adventists don't accept the Nicene Creed statements" suggestions floating around on this thread.

So since your church never killed anyone, and since mine never killed anyone. and since we clearly regard each other as being wrong, let us simply proceed on that basis without delving into various RC attrocities

If it is true that Roman Catholic views in favor of transubstantiation should be dismissed on this thread - (as if this were a discussion in a Syriac Orthodox hosted/specific forum) - I can see your point.

But if this is an open forum where both Roman Catholics and all others are welcome to participate as they have been - then the historic events associated with the rise of this idea - should be considered even if there was no church in Syria leading out in it at the time.

But I agree with you that I am not naming the Syrian Orthodox church as having conducted the inquisition or as being in communion with the Catholic church. You are free to state that case however you like.

Firstly St. Jerome was not a Protestant; that suggestion is entirely laughable; he also pre-dated the Dark Ages.

Firstly Huss and Jerome were contemporaries in the Protestant Reformation -- for those who are reading about the Protestant Reformation. The Jerome you are laughing about is a different one.

Details matter.

Now your second point seems to be the Syriac Orthodox shoukd reject the ancient Eucharistic doctrine because the EVIL ROMANS believe in it,

Please provide a quote for such a statement from my post above - or are you content to "quote you" when "accusing me"?

 

[Rick Otto]

QUOTE="Wgw: Everything I said about the Cathars was accurate.

Not at all, except in your mind and under informed opinion.

The very website you link to describes the dualistic beliefs of the Cathars or Albigensians right here: http://www.cathar.info/cathar_beliefs.htm#tenets

What site offers the heresies you call "Orthodox"?

The simple fact that the Roman Catholics decided to butcher these people does not justify their faith.

No one here is trying to say they were perfect. You missed the point.

Otherwise I might well contemplate conversion to the Aztec religion or Islam, since the RCs butchered them also. Indeed, Roman Catholic crusaders engaged in cannibalism when their food supplies ran out, yet this does not alter the reality that the Islamic State is killing off my co-religionists.

You sound more anti Catholic than any of us. In your absence of attention, you have mistaken me for advocating gnosticism.

 

[Rick Otto]

[QUOTE="Wgw:Firstly St. Jerome was not a Protestant; that suggestion is entirely laughable...

Your implicit suggestion that he made that suggestion is the kind of malice that will lead to decline of any willingness to further engage.

 

[Acts24Fourteen]

 

[Acts24Fourteen]

Day of Atonement and Judgment, Now Taking Place, Christ Jesus is in the Heavenly Sanctuary above ministering there, not in a 'transubstantiated' host on earth [which is where the Dragon is cast unto]:

Exodus 28:15 KJV - And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; [of] gold, [of] blue, and [of] purple, and [of] scarlet, and [of] fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.

Exodus 28:29 KJV - And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy [place], for a memorial before the LORD continually.

Exodus 28:30 KJV - And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually.

Leviticus 23:27 KJV - Also on the tenth [day] of this seventh month [there shall be] a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

Leviticus 23:28 KJV - And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it [is] a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.

Leviticus 23:29 KJV - For whatsoever soul [it be] that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.

Leviticus 23:30 KJV - And whatsoever soul [it be] that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.

Leviticus 23:31 KJV - Ye shall do no manner of work: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

Leviticus 23:32 KJV - It [shall be] unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth [day] of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

Revelation 14:7 KJV - Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Leviticus 16 ...​

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEa7jKR9fvY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESyt3tiF3_Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-xQqFgclL0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-xQqFgclL0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCjvcLm3pU8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ertOw3ROavQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVvkTWUbvFI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYm97fIqqj4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTgqtobU0To

http://www.pearltrees.com/awhn/jeremiah-messengers-ministry/id5486207

http://www.pearltrees.com/awhn

http://www.pearltrees.com/awhn/the-loud-cry-revelation-14-12/id5277051

 

[Wgw]

Alas the unusual SDA eschatological views are unpersuasive to non-Adventists; these are best understood in the context of an attempt to find meaning in the wake of the Great Disappointment of 1848. The Eucharistic theology of Orthodoxy and Catholicism is rather considerably more ancient.

 

[Acts24Fourteen]

...The Eucharistic theology of Orthodoxy and Catholicism is rather considerably more ancient.

Yes:

"And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel ..."

"... The church that is at Babylon ..."

Revelation 14:8 KJV - And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation 16:19 KJV - And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Revelation 17:5 KJV - And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Revelation 18:2 KJV - And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Psalm 137:8 KJV - O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy [shall he be], that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

Isaiah 13:19 KJV - And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

Isaiah 14:22 KJV - For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

 

[Wgw]

I am inclined to regard these verses as referring to the worldy aspects of contemprary society; however to the extent they refer to a religion, although the Chaldean Catholics make themselves an easy target (the Patriarch of Babylon!!!), I am inclined to regard these as referring to Gnosticism. Consider - the last religions to bear traces of ancient Mesopotamian faiths are Mandaeism and Yazidism, the former unambiguously Gnostic. Mandaeism in particular is an expression of Chaldean paganism in many respects.

 

[Albion]

Day of Atonement and Judgment, Now Taking Place, Christ Jesus is in the Heavenly Sanctuary above ministering there, not in a 'transubstantiated' host on earth....

There isn't any reason that Christ cannot be seated above and also be with the worshipper during the observance of the Lord's Supper.

He said he'd be with every two or three of us who are gathered in his name--and we believe that--even though we all believe that he has ascended to his Father in heaven. Therefore, we have no reason to disbelieve him when he said the bread and wine would be his essence in some sense.

 

[Wgw]

There isn't any reason that Christ cannot be seated above and also be with the worshipper during the observance of the Lord's Supper.

He said he'd be with every two or three of us who are gathered in his name--and we believe that--even though we all believe that he has ascended to his Father in heaven. Therefore, we have no reason to disbelieve him when he said the bread and wine would be his essence in some sense.

Hence the word "omnipresent," there is a crypto-Arianism in the idea that Christ can not be in Heaven and on Earth simultaneously. I would also argue the Black Rubric of the 1662 BCP is Nestorian, in that it limits omnipresence to the divine nature, whoch seems to be directly contradicted by the manner in which the resurrected Lord, in His glorified human body, seemed to defy physics regarding locality. A direct implication of theosis is a glorifiation of the human nature by the divine, and this seems rather clearly expressed in the condition of the risen Lord.

 

[Albion]

...there is a crypto-Arianism in the idea that Christ can not be in Heaven and on Earth simultaneously. I would also argue the Black Rubric of the 1662 BCP is Nestorian, in that it limits omnipresence to the divine nature....

The "Black Rubric", so-called because of the color of the ink, was slipped into the 1552 BCP without permission. It was corrected in the 1662 edition. It didn't have anything to do with Nestorianism in any case.

 

[BobRyan]

The claim that the Bible instruction on the Lord's Supper has been accurately preserved in those cases - is a claim that can be tested "sola scriptura" to see just where the Bible mentions "confecting the body soul and divinity of Christ" each week.

It does not take long to discover that it does not say that.

Also in John 6 - Christ is neither sacrificed nor dead nor is anyone biting Christ in John 6. This is also an easy Bible detail for all of us to agree upon.

Furthermore in Heb 10 the "once for all time sacrifice" was completed, ended, finished then Christ "sat down" at the right hand of God.

No ongoing "confecting the body, soul and divinity of Christ" each week on earth.

the focus of the Hebrews 10 and Hebrews 8:1 chapter as noted in that quote is that Christ is NOT still engaged in "sacrifice".

This is irrefutable.

Coming up with crypto-name-calling as a substitute for Bible detail - simply does not work.

 

[BobRyan]

John 14 "If I go away I will come again that WHERE I am THERE you may be also" - John 14.

The emphasis is not that Christ is somehow "less than" the emphasis is on being united with Christ at His second coming - not by simply imagining that someone on earth has the powers enabling the "confecting of the body soul and divinity of Christ" while on earth.

 

[Albion]

the focus of the Hebrews 10 and Hebrews 8:1 chapter as noted in that quote is that Christ is NOT still engaged in "sacrifice".

This is irrefutable.

It should also be said that "confecting" and "sacrifice" are two separate issues.

 

[BobRyan]

Nowhere in the Bible do we have the claim that a human can "confect the body soul and divinity of Christ"

But the claim to have such power - is specific to eating the bread of communion - the body of Christ broken "sacrifice"

If as 1Cor 11 states - it is a memorial of that completed "it is finished" past event - then it is not a sacrifice - it is a memorial of one.

 

[Albion]

Nowhere in the Bible do we have the claim that a human can "confect the body soul and divinity of Christ"

But the claim to have such power - is specific to eating the bread of communion - the body of Christ broken "sacrifice"

No, it's not. The one can and does exist (if we compare churches with regard to their teachings) without the other.

If as 1Cor 11 states - it is a memorial of that completed "it is finished" past event - then it is not a sacrifice - it is a memorial of one.

It can be both. Here again, the range of views is broader than your comment would suggest. Since all of this has been discussed many times before, I doubt that we want to start down that road again here and now, though.

 

[BobRyan]

It looks like the title of this thread is "transubtantiation" which is all about memorial vs actual sacrifice in the mass -- if this is not subject of the thread - let me know.

Based on the actual content of the OP and title - this is the subject of the thread.

not sure how you missed that.

 

[Albion]

.