transubstantiation question.

[bmjackson]

Hi

I am considering converting and am having trouble over Transubstantiation but it is not the usual one as I am not a Protestant believing that it is a symbol.

My belief is that Christ was showing the disciples, the night before He died, that the old Jewish ritual, would become a real feeding on Him the Bread of Life. Like everything else in the Jewish religion, what was once a symbol would become a reality in the spiritual realm. There is no point having a symbol become another symbol.

So now, I believe that I am feeding on Him, His flesh and blood, moment by moment as my very life. But I have nothing against those who want to partake and who perhaps don't feel that they are partaking in His real flesh and blood in the same spiritual way.

The reason why He told the disciples to 'do this' until He came again was for them to 'show forth His death', but He did come to them again when He arose. He was no longer dead.

At Pentecost the fire fell and the disciples were now able to feed on Him in the way He had shown them, living their very lives from His power.

So can someone help me please or perhaps tell me whether I would be accepted into the faith with my belief?

 

[Rhamiel]

I am just going to try and reword what you said to make sure I understand it.

You believe that since we have the Holy Spirit inside us, we do not need a Eucharist that is really Jesus because we already have God within us through the Holy Spirit?

do I have a basic understanding of this?

 

[bmjackson]

I am just going to try and reword what you said to make sure I understand it.

You believe that since we have the Holy Spirit inside us, we do not need a Eucharist that is really Jesus because we already have God within us through the Holy Spirit?

do I have a basic understanding of this?

Hi thanks for the response.

I must qualify what having the Holy Spirit within us means, as I think that it is only through infused contemplation that we have Him living in us. But yes once He is living in us we are feeding on Him and the Eucharist is being received moment by moment and not now and again.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

Well, I am going to be a kind of "Bible Alone" Catholic. In the sacred scriptures we read that the apostles had eucharist continuously and that it was always hold as Body and Blood of Christ, even after the resurrection of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 10, 14 - 18

{10:14} Because of this, most beloved of mine, flee from the
worship of idols. {10:15} Since I am speaking to those who
are prudent, judge what I say for yourselves. {10:16} The cup
of benediction that we bless, is it not a communion in the
Blood of Christ? And the bread that we break, is it not a
participation in the Body of the Lord? {10:17} Through the
one bread, we, though many, are one body: all of us who are
partakers of the one bread. {10:18} Consider Israel,
according to the flesh. Are not those who eat from the​

sacrifices partakers of the altar?

 

[Rhamiel]

God is ever present

so God is everywhere at all times, that is part of the basic Christian understanding of the omnipotence of God

God can be present in different ways
even though God is in all places, He was specially present as Jesus Christ walking the earth.

when Jesus was eating in the upper room it was different then God being present everywhere.

same with the physical and spiritual nature of the Eucharist

it seems like you have a very good focus on the Holy Spirit, that is important
I am not saying that the Eucharist is more important then the Holy Spirit, I am saying that both are present within us in different ways

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Hi thanks for the response.

I must qualify what having the Holy Spirit within us means, as I think that it is only through infused contemplation that we have Him living in us. But yes once He is living in us we are feeding on Him and the Eucharist is being received moment by moment and not now and again.

It sounds like you are close in your beliefs, but you just need some fine tuning. To become a Catholic you have to accept the teaching that, when it is consecrated at the hands of the priest (This is what Jesus was saying to the apostles when he said "do this"), the bread and wine are what become the body and blood of our Lord and that receiving the Eucharist means receiving this.

"When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them. And their eyes were opened and they recognized him; and he vanished out of their sight." - Luke 24:30-31
​

Notice how Jesus vanishes at the very point that the bread and wine are consecrated. This is a sign to show that the bread and wine turn into Jesus. Also, notice how the eyes of the apostles had been closed to understanding the scriptures prior to receiving the Eucharist. But their eyes are suddenly opened as soon as they receive it.

"The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread." - 1 Corinthians 10:16-17
​

The body and blood that we receive is Jesus' living and risen flesh and blood. It's not dead flesh. The divinity of Jesus is how all of this is possible. Because His flesh and blood is divine we partake in His divinity when we receive it in Holy Communion. And this is how partaking in it can give us eternal life. I believe that the reason why Jesus allows for His body and blood to be veiled under the appearance of bread and wine is because it's easier for us to receive it that way than if it were to look like flesh and blood but also so that we may have faith.

"Jesus said to him, 'Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.'” - John 20:29
​

By the way, St. Pope John Paul II wrote an entire encyclical on the subject of the Eucharist and its relationship to the Church called Ecclesia De Eucharistia. I recommend reading this encyclical.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Hi

I am considering converting and am having trouble over Transubstantiation but it is not the usual one as I am not a Protestant believing that it is a symbol.

My belief is that Christ was showing the disciples, the night before He died, that the old Jewish ritual, would become a real feeding on Him the Bread of Life. Like everything else in the Jewish religion, what was once a symbol would become a reality in the spiritual realm. There is no point having a symbol become another symbol.

So now, I believe that I am feeding on Him, His flesh and blood, moment by moment as my very life. But I have nothing against those who want to partake and who perhaps don't feel that they are partaking in His real flesh and blood in the same spiritual way.

The reason why He told the disciples to 'do this' until He came again was for them to 'show forth His death', but He did come to them again when He arose. He was no longer dead.

At Pentecost the fire fell and the disciples were now able to feed on Him in the way He had shown them, living their very lives from His power.

So can someone help me please or perhaps tell me whether I would be accepted into the faith with my belief?

How do you understand this?

John 6
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

I don't know if this if even going to help you or just confuse the matter but:

If I understand what you're trying to say.....

OK, I had a friend who was studying to be a Christian minister (I forget which denomination, it's not important) and was working on his Ph.D. in Applied Mathematics.

(Yes I actually hang around with people like that) anyway....

Although not a Catholic the concept of Transubstantiation interested him. His Ph.D. thesis was on the subject of transubstantiation as a real event using the theology of the Church as a basis for the postulates of the foundation of the problem. His conclusion (using some very high class math) was that transubstantiation had to be a pan-dimensional event occurring simultaneously in all places in the same moment.

The implication of this a staggering (if really hard to understand) but it does sort of fit in your view that moment by moment you are feeding on Christ.

Of course on the other hand as 3 dimensional beings locked into linear time we are unable to actually perceive an event with a superposition that spans a high level dimensional space in, what to us, is a timeless state

So..

what do I know ?

 

[bmjackson]

How do you understand this?

John 6
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

Hi yes l accept this as a feeding on Him by faith and thanks giving as scripture says, and His flesh and blood become real life giving substances to us.

 

[bmjackson]

It sounds like you are close in your beliefs, but you just need some fine tuning. To become a Catholic you have to accept the teaching that, when it is consecrated at the hands of the priest (This is what Jesus was saying to the apostles when he said "do this"), the bread and wine are what become the body and blood of our Lord and that receiving the Eucharist means receiving this.

"When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them. And their eyes were opened and they recognized him; and he vanished out of their sight." - Luke 24:30-31
​

Notice how Jesus vanishes at the very point that the bread and wine are consecrated. This is a sign to show that the bread and wine turn into Jesus. Also, notice how the eyes of the apostles had been closed to understanding the scriptures prior to receiving the Eucharist. But their eyes are suddenly opened as soon as they receive it.

"The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread." - 1 Corinthians 10:16-17
​

The body and blood that we receive is Jesus' living and risen flesh and blood. It's not dead flesh. The divinity of Jesus is how all of this is possible. Because His flesh and blood is divine we partake in His divinity when we receive it in Holy Communion. And this is how partaking in it can give us eternal life.

Yes when He said do this, it was to continue with the Jewish ritual whilst He was in the grave. They recognised Him of course when He broke bread afterwards but they were still did not have the Spirit poured out on them so that they would be receiving their life from His sacrifice. I agree that we receive eternal life through feeding on Him but l can't see why the symbolism of using the elements would be continued but the texts from 1 Corinthians have given me something to think about. It says at the beginning of the chapter though that the Israelites were feeding spiritually. Thanks for giving me that to think about though.

 

[bmjackson]

I don't know if this if even going to help you or just confuse the matter but:

If I understand what you're trying to say.....

OK, I had a friend who was studying to be a Christian minister (I forget which denomination, it's not important) and was working on his Ph.D. in Applied Mathematics.

(Yes I actually hang around with people like that) anyway....

Although not a Catholic the concept of Transubstantiation interested him. His Ph.D. thesis was on the subject of transubstantiation as a real event using the theology of the Church as a basis for the postulates of the foundation of the problem. His conclusion (using some very high class math) was that transubstantiation had to be a pan-dimensional event occurring simultaneously in all places in the same moment.

The implication of this a staggering (if really hard to understand) but it does sort of fit in your view that moment by moment you are feeding on Christ.

Of course on the other hand as 3 dimensional beings locked into linear time we are unable to actually perceive an event with a superposition that spans a high level dimensional space in, what to us, is a timeless state

So..

what do I know ?

Very interesting. Will be thinking about what you said.

 

[Azureknight 773]

Eucharist in Scripture: From Beginning to End