TLK Valentine
I've already read the books you want burned.
- Apr 15, 2012
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I know -- and I know how common it is to confuse one for the other.
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Or both. History was once considered literature, you know.
What have I said that is either baseles speculation or wishful thinking?!...
If there is no free will, then there is no accountability. My actions mean nothing to me because I didn't choose to do them.
Which means that everything Satan does is actually God pulling the strings.
And well He should -- as He causes them all.
God sets the fire, then sets the conditions to put it out.
So you say.... or is it so God says through you?
The alternative is being slaves to the Narrative... characters in a story whose only purpose is to serve as an example to later generations.
This is still a conclusion of duality - either we have free will, or we have no will at all.
It is not "either or," all creatures have a measure of will as I explicitly and verbosely explained above.
You are still responsible for your actions, because you have the capacity to choose how to respond to outside ad internal stimuli. If someone slaps you, you do not have to kill them. You have a choice in how to react to that situation.
You are not a marionette - that is another lie (just like duality) to make you throw your hands up and say, "God made me do it." That is asinine as "the devil made me do it."
Limited will is the best phrase for what we have. And, the point is not to control this world for your own sake, because the point that of "creation" is not physically based. Life as you may know it is a spiritual projection.
It is understandable why you have taken the traditional skeptical route of understanding and identifying the essential it of God wit respect to our responsibikity, and will. Not even the Church reconciles this, and many believe we DO have 100% free will. So, it is culturally ingrained in you to confront THAT "truth," think about it, and then draw the conclusion you draw.
I am saying your entire foundation (i.e. free will or nothing) is flawed. Go look in the bible and tell me where God says we have 100% free will. Then, look in the bible and tell me where God says we have NO free will, and we are absolute slaves absolutely. Then, go in the bible aND look at the examples of choice, and see what God said about responsibility. (These questions are quasi-rhetorical, but you should still find out for yourself.)
Even in the Apocryphal library, there no insinuation that we have 100% free will, and nowhere does it intimate that any of us have no will. If you believe we have no will, and that the programming for all of us is written (as opposed to responsive strings based on our choices,) then you are missing a large point in Christianity in general: God IS IN CONTROL.
But, His control does not absolve you of the responsibikity of your actions. Just because you know the future of someone doesn't mean they are absolved of the responsibiliy of their choices. The two are non-sequitur.
Even Christ did not have 100% free will - He did the complete will of His Father. He could have destroyed Rome in a blink; He decided to be delivered to death for us.
If you think we have no choice in anything, then Christ's sacrifice is neither a sacrifice, nor is it a gesture to bring salvation to us.
In other words, Christ is useless - because why else would He let Himself be tortured to death if we are all rigid code?
Why else would He say "IF You Do..." something if none of us are responsible for our hard-coded actions? That means Christ is a liar; it doesn't matter what you do since everyone is already coded for a location.
Why is there a judgment if we are all FULLY predestined?
Why was hell made for the angels as a judgment (hell was NOT made for us)?
Why would Christ even come down from Heaven to do what He did?
If this is what you are saying (because, these are the implications,) then that is your prerogative. But, let's just make sure you know what you are saying.
There is no free will, but there is limited will that charges us with responsibility for our actions. And the contrapositive is true: there is no full predestination that negates your responsibility for your actions.
But God has pulled the strings knowing I would react in the ways He chooses.
God puts a rat in a maze He Himself has built... can the rat truly say it chose the maze?
Now that's duality -- physical = bad; spiritual = good.
Of course I'm skeptical -- under your theology, God has manipulated your entire life, down to the minute details, providing the right stimuli knowing you'd respond as He willed, to turn you into a walking object lesson. Everything you've ever done or been, according to you, has been to be a "don't let this happen to you" message to future generations.
Sounds like God manipulates our lives, and then punishes/rewards based on the inevitable responses which He specifically engineered.
My point exactly -- GOD IS IN CONTROL.
We're not talking about knowing the future, we're talking about arranging it.
Sounds like a choice to me. He chose to do the will of His Father -- no difficult task, considering he was His Father... at least according to John 10:30. Your milage may vary.
He is the archetype of the perfect human - correctly reconciling His limited choice to respond to events and stimuli with the will of God.
But if Jesus was a normal human, God would've already known exactly what his limited choice would be... and would have arranged the stimuli accordingly.
After all, it's not as though it were possible for any of us to act contrary to His Will... God cannot be blindsided.
Ah, but I do have a choice -- because I choose not to think that God is pulling the strings for His own benefit.
Why indeed go through the whole metaphysical melodrama? Why was a sacrifice part of the show in the first place?
Because the illusion of choice keeps people in line. Your life is controlled so rigidly that you must behave in a certain manner. The trap has been baited and set... and you will walk into it; it's inevitable. But you still need to think it's not there.
Not made for us? God was forced to improvise, then?
Why indeed? What purpose does the melodrama serve?
The error in your analysis is that you think I consider us to be mindless robots following a code. It would be more accurate to see yourself as a dog being pulled along on a choke chain... of course, you can either pretend the chain isn't there, or learn to love it.
But God has pulled the strings knowing I would react in the ways He chooses.
God puts a rat in a maze He Himself has built... can the rat truly say it chose the maze?
Now that's duality -- physical = bad; spiritual = good.
Of course I'm skeptical -- under your theology, God has manipulated your entire life, down to the minute details, providing the right stimuli knowing you'd respond as He willed, to turn you into a walking object lesson. Everything you've ever done or been, according to you, has been to be a "don't let this happen to you" message to future generations.
Sounds like God manipulates our lives, and then punishes/rewards based on the inevitable responses which He specifically engineered.
My point exactly -- GOD IS IN CONTROL.
We're not talking about knowing the future, we're talking about arranging it.
Sounds like a choice to me. He chose to do the will of His Father -- no difficult task, considering he was His Father... at least according to John 10:30. Your milage may vary.
But if Jesus was a normal human, God would've already known exactly what his limited choice would be... and would have arranged the stimuli accordingly.
After all, it's not as though it were possible for any of us to act contrary to His Will... God cannot be blindsided.
Ah, but I do have a choice -- because I choose not to think that God is pulling the strings for His own benefit.
Why indeed go through the whole metaphysical melodrama? Why was a sacrifice part of the show in the first place?
Because the illusion of choice keeps people in line.
Your life is controlled so rigidly that you must behave in a certain manner. The trap has been baited and set... and you will walk into it; it's inevitable. But you still need to think it's not there.
Not made for us? God was forced to improvise, then?
Why indeed? What purpose does the melodrama serve?
The error in your analysis is that you think I consider us to be mindless robots following a code.
It would be more accurate to see yourself as a dog being pulled along on a choke chain... of course, you can either pretend the chain isn't there, or learn to love it.
Hypothetical: So, what would you do if someone put a gun to your head and said, "slaughter your child, your mother, or your friend", what would you do? What choice do you have?
Let's start with the stone mason bit...
Hypothetical: So, what would you do if someone put a gun to your head and said, "slaughter your child, your mother, or your friend", what would you do? What choice do you have?
Why is this ''bit'' bothering you?
Again, just because you know the future does not mean anyone is absolved of their own responsibility for their own actions.[
God isn't pulling strings; we are not marionettes.
If you want to place blame, put it on Adam and Eve. They were made like gods, and they chose to abdicate that for the lie of duality, ascension, and that God did not have their best interest - hiding things from them.
Right. This seems to be a common notion amongst atheists and agnostics - even believers. We WERE created in His image, but we lost that.
This is a spiritual situation, not carnality.
I said exactly what I meant - which is NOT "physical = bad; spiritual = good."
When did I ever say this? Or, is this what you inferred? I said exactly what I meant, and that is NOT "my theology." I have no theology, in fact I don't even have a denomination for which "theology" should be shared, or interpreted.
I know that is what it sounds like, because that argument has been used since Genesis 3. But, it isn't the Truth.
Knowing the future, and the complete evolution of every single event does not excuse anyone from their actions or intent to act. It is as simple as that.
When has precognition ever made a criminal innocent of his or her crimes s/he ultimately commits?
Try using that defense in a CARNAL court of law, let alone at spiritual judgment.
You are having trouble separating control over activity with a lack of will - erroneously leading to the conclusion that since God is in control, you aren't responsible for your choices or intent. God IS in control. So what?
It neither obliterate your responsibility, nor does it suggest that you are a slave to a source code.
So, you have the capacity to do, think and choose good and/or evil, but you ARE bounded by certain conditions (i.e. you don't have the power to undo creation, or even to ascend - yet.)
Limited will does not mean you have no choice: you need to understand this distinction.
Christ could have defied God whenever He wanted to. In fact, it wasn't until he was 26 until the Holy Spirit fully descended onto Him.
There is no melodrama; there was no exaggerstion or "pomp and circumstance." It is straight forward; the answer is clear in the canon and apocrypha. This is especially true for the reason for the sacrifice: it is for our benefit - a perturbative correction for the added term of SIN in the equation of our life. Without salvation, the equation drives toward total degeneracy for us. (As I said before, there are "coupling constants" and parameters of life that are consequences of the initial and boundary conditions.)
No, it is FEAR and LIES, IGNORANCE and DISDAIN that keep people ENTRAPPED. There is no illusion of choice; the illusion is in believing you are a puppet contrilled by a malevolent god.
Well, that's the big question, isn't it? Is a choice made under duress really a choice?
Even the actions I cause?
I put a glass of poison on the table and tell you it's lemonade. You drink it and I tell the world you committed suicide?
No, he's pulling the leash; we're dogs.
Speaking of "that lie," it's kind of interesting that it was God, not the serpent, that lied to them -- everything happened exactly as the serpent described.
Just "lost," or had it stolen?
You do love that duality even as you rail against it.
Hypotheticals even less so.Don't worry about the questions, they aren't necessarily important.
Perhaps you're unaware, but it flatly contradicts the Bible -- now normally that wouldn't bother me, except you have no basis for pulling this out of your hat.
How does it contradict the Bible? The Greek work most commonly translated as ''carpenter'' could be translated as denoting any kind of laborer.
The Koine Greek word, tekton, has a wider semantic range. It can, of course, mean a carpenter in the common sense; but it can also mean other things:
A new construction carpenter, like a framer
A general construction worker
A general craftsman
A cabinet maker
A Cooper (Someone who makes barrels)
A Shipbuilder
If I were translating Mark 6:3 or Matthew 13:55, I would use ‘craftsman’ instead of ‘carpenter.’ Like the word tekton, ‘craftsman’ is generic.
The etymological evidence leans toward His being a worker or craftsman.
And the building of Sepphoris would attract Hellenistic artisans. By interaction with them He must have had become fluent in Greek and aware of the Hellenitic thought.
So His blending of the Hellenistic and the Jewish and the Roman would really make His messages original.
Not any kind of laborer... there is a bit of a range:
Source: 10 Misconceptions About Jesus: #4 – Jesus was a carpenter
Must have, you say? Wishful thinking?
His blending? That only makes sense if Jesus wrote his own work... which he did not.
It is no wonder that Luke, as a Hellenist, wrote two books of the New Testament. Which means that the ''Church Fathers'' were aware of the need to accentuate the Hellenistic approach of Jesus, i.e. His Hellenistic awareness.
It's not wishful thinking; it is very plausible: He was in contact with many people during His physical time on Earth, and it would have been a miracle indeed, that He would not have become fluent in both Greek and Roman
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