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Radrook

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If I remember my studies correctly on the New Age Movement, dolphins are considered a race above us humans.

Darwin on SeaQuest 2032 was one such transhuman; often rendering assistance as needed.

Eventually, in our incessant, fervent quest to become trans human, we re all, both males and females, going to wind up looking exactly like Alfred E. Neuman.
Alfred E. Neuman - Wikipedia

The_New_Boy_-_Los_Angeles_Herald.jpg

By Unknown(Life time: Unknown) - Original publication: Los Angeles HeraldImmediate source The herald. (Los Angeles [Calif.]) 1893-1900, December 02, 1894, Page 14, Image 14, Public Domain, File:The New Boy - Los Angeles Herald.jpg - Wikimedia Commons
 
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TLK Valentine

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How is this risk not any different from previous technological advances?

It isn't -- there is no "how."

We aren't talking about putting traffic lights for cars. We are talking about procedures on the human body...

We already do plenty of procedures to the human body -- everything from braces on teeth to implants in breasts... and more.

Nothing new under the sun...
 
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just a believing guy

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We already do plenty of procedures to the human body -- everything from braces on teeth to implants in breasts... and more.

Nothing new under the sun...

Wait a minute are you subtly implying there should be breast implants?
 
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TLK Valentine

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Wait a minute are you subtly implying there should be breast implants?

subtly implying? How about I explicitly say it? If someone wants to improve their looks, why should I (or you, for that matter) object?
Not my body, not my problem.
 
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just a believing guy

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subtly implying? How about I explicitly say it? If someone wants to improve their looks, why should I (or you, for that matter) object?
Not my body, not my problem.

If you were female, I bet you'd think twice about putting something half alive in your chest...
 
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TLK Valentine

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If you were female, I bet you'd think twice about putting something half alive in your chest...

Well, I'm not, and according to your screen name, neither are you.

We both agree that humans are physically imperfect. Attaining perfection may be impossible, but we can still strive for improvement.
 
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just a believing guy

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Well, I'm not, and according to your screen name, neither are you.

We both agree that humans are physically imperfect. Attaining perfection may be impossible, but we can still strive for improvement.

'Guys' may denote female persons though, but I'm male, yes.

With regard to bionics, only machines are perfect (they have no hormones or something like that), so there is no way for a human to attain ''bionic'' perfection other than ''making a pact'' with these machines. And it'll all get messy in the end (the Borg machines).
 
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TLK Valentine

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'Guy' may denote a female person though, but I'm male, yes.

With regard to bionics, only machines are perfect (they have no hormones or something like that),

"Perfect"? You never had a machine break down on you?

so there is no way for a human to attain perfection other than ''making a pact'' with these machines.

Sorry, as your initial premise was flawed, so is your conclusion.

Perfection is unattainable, and, in my opinion, should remain so. It's far more useful as a desired goal than an achieved one.
 
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just a believing guy

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"Perfect"? You never had a machine break down on you?



Sorry, as your initial premise was flawed, so is your conclusion.

Perfection is unattainable, and, in my opinion, should remain so. It's far more useful as a desired goal than an achieved one.

I said ''with regard to bionics''...

The society of today is entangled in existentialism, so people are striving for perfection more than ever. Therefore the time of the Borgs is closer than ever today.
 
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TLK Valentine

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I said ''with regard to bionics''...

And what makes bionics different from any other field of technology?

The society of today is entangled in existentialism, so people are striving for perfection more than ever. Therefore the time of the Borgs is closer than ever today.

People have always striven for perfection... Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The difference is in what it looks like and how to go about it -- I believe I noted earlier that the Borg are, in fact, inspired by the book of Revelation... plenty of Christians are saying the time of the Borg is closer than ever, whether they realize they're saying it or not.
 
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just a believing guy

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People have always striven for perfection... Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The difference is in what it looks like and how to go about it -- I believe I noted earlier that the Borg are, in fact, inspired by the book of Revelation... plenty of Christians are saying the time of the Borg is closer than ever, whether they realize they're saying it or not.

How can you tell that people have always striven for perfection? How are the Borg inspired by the Book of evelation?
 
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TLK Valentine

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How can you tell that people have always striven for perfection?

You do realize I just quoted the Bible, right?

How are the Borg inspired by the Book of evelation?

First of all, tell me you're familiar with the Borg, or else this conversation is going to go nowhere quickly.

"Resistance is Futile." You join the Borg or they destroy you. Is God going to tolerate dissent -- in deeds, words, or even thoughts?

The 'assimilated' (the saved) never feel pain, sorrow, or death. They accept their condition because it is impossible for them to do or even think otherwise. Consider that, and read Revelation 21:4

There is one mind which unites the entire Borg Collective -- the Queen. (Revelation 12:1, anyone?)

In the movie "Star Trek: First Contact" she introduces herself thus: "I am the beginning. The end. The one who is many. I am the Borg... I am the Collective. I bring order to chaos."

Compare to Revelation 21:6 -- "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely."

Then, of course, is the iconic Borg cube -- their preferred method of travel:

320x240.jpg


Wow, that thing's big. Make it even bigger and it's heaven:

Revelation 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

IOW, a cube: and at 12,000 furlongs, that equals a cube about 1500 miles across

maxresdefault.jpg


Where do you think the Star Trek writers get their ideas from?
 
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Strathos

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How can you tell that people have always striven for perfection? How are the Borg inspired by the Book of evelation?

Because they both involve big cubical structures, apparently.
 
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CrystalDragon

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You do realize I just quoted the Bible, right?



First of all, tell me you're familiar with the Borg, or else this conversation is going to go nowhere quickly.

"Resistance is Futile." You join the Borg or they destroy you. Is God going to tolerate dissent -- in deeds, words, or even thoughts?

The 'assimilated' (the saved) never feel pain, sorrow, or death. They accept their condition because it is impossible for them to do or even think otherwise. Consider that, and read Revelation 21:4

There is one mind which unites the entire Borg Collective -- the Queen. (Revelation 12:1, anyone?)

In the movie "Star Trek: First Contact" she introduces herself thus: "I am the beginning. The end. The one who is many. I am the Borg... I am the Collective. I bring order to chaos."

Compare to Revelation 21:6 -- "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely."

Then, of course, is the iconic Borg cube -- their preferred method of travel:

320x240.jpg


Wow, that thing's big. Make it even bigger and it's heaven:

Revelation 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

IOW, a cube: and at 12,000 furlongs, that equals a cube about 1500 miles across

maxresdefault.jpg


Where do you think the Star Trek writers get their ideas from?


I actually didn't know that, that's interesting.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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You do realize I just quoted the Bible, right?



First of all, tell me you're familiar with the Borg, or else this conversation is going to go nowhere quickly.

"Resistance is Futile." You join the Borg or they destroy you. Is God going to tolerate dissent -- in deeds, words, or even thoughts?


The 'assimilated' (the saved) never feel pain, sorrow, or death. They accept their condition because it is impossible for them to do or even think otherwise. Consider that, and read Revelation 21:4

There is one mind which unites the entire Borg Collective -- the Queen. (Revelation 12:1, anyone?)

The special detail that isn't misinformation - something to be subconscious absorbed - is that the "borg" represent exactly what Gene Roddenberry thinks the "heavenly entities" and perfected will be like.

You are agnostic, but I won't assume you aren't familiar with religious infighting. Part of that infighting comes from certain denominations that desperately try to attribute female qualities (or any anthropomorphism) to God, when His nature has been spelled out. The female principality spirit has asserted itself as queen of heaven when there is no queen position. So, it made itself a queen WITHOUT A KING. This is why the scripture about spiritual Babylon being a queen who doesn't sit as a widow is in the bible - to highlight WHO/WHAT we are talking about - that principality spirit. It is an allusion to what it tried to do in the spirit against God.

In the movie "Star Trek: First Contact" she introduces herself thus: "I am the beginning. The end. The one who is many. I am the Borg... I am the Collective. I bring order to chaos."

Compare to Revelation 21:6 -- "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely."

Then, of course, is the iconic Borg cube -- their preferred method of travel:

320x240.jpg


Wow, that thing's big. Make it even bigger and it's heaven:

Revelation 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

IOW, a cube: and at 12,000 furlongs, that equals a cube about 1500 miles across

maxresdefault.jpg


Where do you think the Star Trek writers get their ideas from?

You actually opened up a can of worms that contained several jars. Very good points, however...

The BORG idea is a bastardization of several myths, including myths of the bible that stay as myth because the church, neither people, have distinguished the mythos from the truth of Christianity itself. One of them is the Queen of heaven, which is actually from the Babylonian myth of Semaramis - the mother of Nimrod/Set/etc. Semaramis is Diana (inspiration for Wonder Woman,) queen of heaven, who has been applied to every other civilization goddess. In Greek mythology, Gaia is the consort of Uranus/Caelus. The Queen of Heaven is also known Isis, Inanna (Diana,) Anat, Ishtar (easter,) etc. The unofficial name of the Borg Queen is "Asil," which means "pure, clean, noble, authentic..." in Arabic.

In the canon, and apocrypha, the Queen of heaven is a spiritual influential principality that passes itself off as equal, and opposite to God the Father. There is no queen of heaven; the imagery of the woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet is The Church - specifically the Virgin, pure Church of God who has kept herself pure, clean, and authentic in that she did not consort with any other "gods." The Satan has been associated with female attributes of powerful opposition - most notably in canonical texts as the Jezebel Spirit. Shows like "V," and Star Trek reinforce this mythos.

Do you see how it is a twisted version of Hebrew scriptures? If there were ever going to be a "Queen of Heaven," it is going to be the Church itself - all remnant/faithful members of that body. The baby she gives birth to are the firstfruits of her designation - namely the first set of people who are actually perfect(ed) sons of God from the people that He Himself created in His image. The Dragon - that principality spirit - is trying to kill the child she is bearing, i.e. that entity is trying to destroy the chances of any of us being perfected, and thereby destroying "God's Pet Project." The Dragon fails, because the child was caught up before it could get to it (that is Christ's victory, literally Him as the first to beat sin and resurrect to perfection.) And, so the dragon tries to destroy the remnant of the Church (the woman) in order to retard the number that choose to be victorious over sin.

That image of the woman is at worse an astrological symbol for VIRGO - and an analysis of that goes even further into the sinister culture of real spiritual truth VS. what translates onto a page of a canonical text.

This ignorance in the Church has led to very simple things being turned into literary and psychological mostrosities - the most notable is the Paradise Lost, or Dantean Hell - of which the latter was, ironically, an allegory of the mythos of Catholic teaching used to dole out what Dante thought was the right justice for each type of spiritually derelict soul.

Gene Roddenberry was a "Philo-semite" possibly, allegedly only because of his mother's suspiciously Jewish sounding last name and life. But, Gene certainly used Hebrew "lore" to influence his show. As we saw, Asil AKA the Borg Queen is supposed to be perfection. The Borg is actually a commentary on what Gene believes "heaven, resurrection and perfected bodies" in terms of the Bible would be - drab, boring, visually ugly, without flavor, and nothing but a race of zombies that are perfect only in "calculations" of the heart, rather than perfect in the heart itself.

Again, this is an example of what principality spirits have tried to argue about God since the Garden: that He is boring, without flavor, ambivalent, and only interested in loyal and obedient robots that won't question Him - because He is scared of what wuld happened if one's eyes were open.

The show is actually a subconscious projection of what he envisions the world AFTER the resurrection, and during "Day of Peace/1000 years of Christ" to be. Notice we are at least 300 years in the "present" future; the wars AT Har Meggido (Armageddon is a PLACE, not an event) had happened in his opinion, and the entire world has transformed. "We" are at peace with comparatively marginal amounts of the crime ad problems of the past. Money doesn't exist. Intercontinental war doesn't exist. We are part of a galactic federation (a New age, "dream" of the alleged string pullers of the world.) We have drastically increased in knowledge to reach our technological and energy needs. It is more or less a utopia time. This mimics the conditions of the "Day of Peace/1000 year reign" even for those who weren't resurrected to a glorified body - but remained as they were.

We get geometrical shapes to represent Borg ships, because these shapes are examples of simplicity in perfection in calculation. They are part of a unimatrix (not universe,) because every detail of their collective is calculated through technology, rather than organically united in spirit. In fact, Gene is trying to argue imperfection is better than perfection - if it means being Borg (his idea of God, and heaven.) Another twist of spirituality, but accepted axiom of life: that sin is more attractive/profitable than perfection with God.

The reason why the Borg are nearly impossible to destroy is because they represent Gene's idea of what the resurrected saints, judges and rulers will look and seem like compared to the rest of the lot. Remember, about 900+ years into "peace," the same principality spirit that has made a culture of ignorant in spirituality for us will once again try to tempt man. Then, there will be a final war with against that principality and his people (federation,) against Christ and His saints (borg.)

Star Trek was a commentary on the Abrahamic religions in general, and how they would be seen in a future where humans have attained "peace" on their own power. Perfection and unity (because of the voluntary heart, not calculations) is made to seem ugly and undesirable compared to the peace gained by humans alone. It is a story told over and over whose basic purpose is to defecate on the Most High God - and anything He values.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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Also, the "Order out of a chaos" reference is NOT a godly reference. In fact, it is an insidious illusion that has duped the public for millenia. It comes from similar spirits of confusion and confounding like the Queen of Heaven Spirit.

Some people call it masonic, or evil, because it was a common phrase used by royalty (and, contemporarily, by those who are in power.) It has been nuanced many times, but it's real meaning has always been the same.

The phrase "order out of chaos" is an ancient dialectic of control and illusion in order to perpetuate complacency, ignorance and dependency on others. Remeber, God actually was the one who said He would be our King, and that the Hebrews were capable of existing without borders and a human representative. But, since all other nations had "human" entities as their kings, the Hebrews begged to have the same thing. God made order out of will, not out of chaos. Principalities who cannot create life, for example, cannot create order on their own. What it does is make chaos look a lot less chaotic (their definition of order) by comparison of an old paradigm. But, in reality, a series of Kantian dialectics are employed to obtain the illusion of order.

That phrase is also a fragment of an encantation (magic.)
 
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TLK Valentine

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The special detail that isn't misinformation - something to be subconscious absorbed - is that the "borg" represent exactly what Gene Roddenberry thinks the "heavenly entities" and perfected will be like.

You are agnostic, but I won't assume you aren't familiar with religious infighting. Part of that infighting comes from certain denominations that desperately try to attribute female qualities (or any anthropomorphism) to God, when His nature has been spelled out. The female principality spirit has asserted itself as queen of heaven when there is no queen position. So, it made itself a queen WITHOUT A KING. This is why the scripture about spiritual Babylon being a queen who doesn't sit as a widow is in the bible - to highlight WHO/WHAT we are talking about - that principality spirit. It is an allusion to what it tried to do in the spirit against God.



You actually opened up a can of worms that contained several jars. Very good points, however...

The BORG idea is a bastardization of several myths, including myths of the bible that stay as myth because the church, neither people, have distinguished the mythos from the truth of Christianity itself. One of them is the Queen of heaven, which is actually from the Babylonian myth of Semaramis - the mother of Nimrod/Set/etc. Semaramis is Diana (inspiration for Wonder Woman,) queen of heaven, who has been applied to every other civilization goddess. In Greek mythology, Gaia is the consort of Uranus/Caelus. The Queen of Heaven is also known Isis, Inanna (Diana,) Anat, Ishtar (easter,) etc. The unofficial name of the Borg Queen is "Asil," which means "pure, clean, noble, authentic..." in Arabic.

In the canon, and apocrypha, the Queen of heaven is a spiritual influential principality that passes itself off as equal, and opposite to God the Father. There is no queen of heaven; the imagery of the woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet is The Church - specifically the Virgin, pure Church of God who has kept herself pure, clean, and authentic in that she did not consort with any other "gods." The Satan has been associated with female attributes of powerful opposition - most notably in canonical texts as the Jezebel Spirit. Shows like "V," and Star Trek reinforce this mythos.

Do you see how it is a twisted version of Hebrew scriptures? If there were ever going to be a "Queen of Heaven," it is going to be the Church itself - all remnant/faithful members of that body. The baby she gives birth to are the firstfruits of her designation - namely the first set of people who are actually perfect(ed) sons of God from the people that He Himself created in His image. The Dragon - that principality spirit - is trying to kill the child she is bearing, i.e. that entity is trying to destroy the chances of any of us being perfected, and thereby destroying "God's Pet Project." The Dragon fails, because the child was caught up before it could get to it (that is Christ's victory, literally Him as the first to beat sin and resurrect to perfection.) And, so the dragon tries to destroy the remnant of the Church (the woman) in order to retard the number that choose to be victorious over sin.

That image of the woman is at worse an astrological symbol for VIRGO - and an analysis of that goes even further into the sinister culture of real spiritual truth VS. what translates onto a page of a canonical text.

This ignorance in the Church has led to very simple things being turned into literary and psychological mostrosities - the most notable is the Paradise Lost, or Dantean Hell - of which the latter was, ironically, an allegory of the mythos of Catholic teaching used to dole out what Dante thought was the right justice for each type of spiritually derelict soul.

Gene Roddenberry was a "Philo-semite" possibly, allegedly only because of his mother's suspiciously Jewish sounding last name and life. But, Gene certainly used Hebrew "lore" to influence his show. As we saw, Asil AKA the Borg Queen is supposed to be perfection. The Borg is actually a commentary on what Gene believes "heaven, resurrection and perfected bodies" in terms of the Bible would be - drab, boring, visually ugly, without flavor, and nothing but a race of zombies that are perfect only in "calculations" of the heart, rather than perfect in the heart itself.

Again, this is an example of what principality spirits have tried to argue about God since the Garden: that He is boring, without flavor, ambivalent, and only interested in loyal and obedient robots that won't question Him - because He is scared of what wuld happened if one's eyes were open.

The show is actually a subconscious projection of what he envisions the world AFTER the resurrection, and during "Day of Peace/1000 years of Christ" to be. Notice we are at least 300 years in the "present" future; the wars AT Har Meggido (Armageddon is a PLACE, not an event) had happened in his opinion, and the entire world has transformed. "We" are at peace with comparatively marginal amounts of the crime ad problems of the past. Money doesn't exist. Intercontinental war doesn't exist. We are part of a galactic federation (a New age, "wet dream" of the alleged string pullers of the world.) We have drastically increased in knowledge to reach our technological and energy needs. It is more or less a utopia time. This mimics the conditions of the "Day of Peace/1000 year reign" even for those who weren't resurrected to a glorified body - but remained as they were.

We get geometrical shapes to represent Borg ships, because these shapes are examples of simplicity in perfection in calculation. They are part of a unimatrix (not universe,) because every detail of their collective is calculated through technology, rather than organically united in spirit. In fact, Gene is trying to argue imperfection is better than perfection - if it means being Borg (his idea of God, and heaven.) Another twist of spirituality, but accepted axiom of life: that sin is more attractive/profitable than perfection with God.

The reason why the Borg are nearly impossible to destroy is because they represent Gene's idea of what the resurrected saints, judges and rulers will look and seem like compared to the rest of the lot. Remember, about 900+ years into "peace," the same principality spirit that has made a culture of ignorant in spirituality for us will once again try to tempt man. Then, there will be a final war AT Armageddon against that principality and his people (federation,) and Christ and His saints (borg.)

Star Trek was a commentary on the Abrahamic religions in general, and how they would be seen in a future where humans have attained "peace" on their own power. Perfection and unity (because of the voluntary heart, not calculations) is made to seem ugly and undesirable compared to the peace gained by humans alone. It is a story told over and over whose basic purpose is to defecate on the Most High God - and anything He values.

I think you're reading far too much into the Borg's use of a female leader. The writers of Star Trek: First Contact were pretty clear that as the Borg social structure (such as it was) was insectoid in nature (what with all the "drones") that a "queen" would be a fitting leader figure. It also gives the writers a chance to write in some sexual tension in the dialog -- first between the Queen and Data, and then later between the Queen and Picard.

And you might not want to ascribe too much into Roddenberry's motives of beliefs on this one. There is absolutely no reference of any kind to a leader of the Borg until First Contact was released in 1996, and aside from being credited for writing the series, Roddenberry had no involvement in the movie...

...understandably so, considering he died in '91.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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I think you're reading far too much into the Borg's use of a female leader. The writers of Star Trek: First Contact were pretty clear that as the Borg social structure (such as it was) was insectoid in nature (what with all the "drones") that a "queen" would be a fitting leader figure. It also gives the writers a chance to write in some sexual tension in the dialog -- first between the Queen and Data, and then later between the Queen and Picard.

And you might not want to ascribe too much into Roddenberry's motives of beliefs on this one. There is absolutely no reference of any kind to a leader of the Borg until First Contact was released in 1996, and aside from being credited for writing the series, Roddenberry had no involvement in the movie...

...understandably so, considering he died in '91.

Gene Roddenberry had real theoretical physicists, and other stewards of disciplines to help him create the show. The Drake Equation was revisioned several times before submitted as a final draft - to make sure the physics made sense. These shows aren't "accidentally" profound. The borg idea, as I said before, isn't new at all - it is a bastardization of several mythos with spiritual slants. It is an antiquated anthromorphism of a device used (in dialectics, especially) to build a case against religion, as it were. Roddenberry likely already had that in the works; the motif was used in "V," and many other science fiction stories.

Even in the book Childhood's End (1953,) the alleged stewards of planetary "transformation" aka Overlords were doing it for their perfect god that eats 'less' evolved planets and worlds - the Overmind. In the SyFy adaptation, the Overmind was a girl. Blizzard''s "Starcraft" (1996) has always had a side story, and (more or less now) main story centered around a psionic female Terran that absorbs the Overmind of a hive mind - bug race. She too sought perfection through her control - order out of chaor or chaos out of order whichever came first. She controls the entire race, acts as a conscious and mobile Overmind, and is on a mission to rule/raze the universe - whichever comes first and works best for her. This is a common motif in art, because art imitates life. The motif of a female queen without a king is an ancient spiritual dialectic meant for philosophical control, and psychological influence in making grotesquely morphed spiritual truths appealing. If subtlety in literature is a mission, then the center will focus around androgyny. It would be easy to draw from this motif as a producer or writer - especially within the skeleton frame of Roddenberry's vision. And, that is assuming he had nothing to do with it.

In fact, many creators give a full direction of where they want their show to go should something happen to them. George R. R. Martin has already told HBO and Co. exactly how he wants his show to end should anything happen to him - despite the fact that he isn't finished with his book series. So, the seemingly nonlinear relationship between Roddenberry and First Contact 'lore is an illusion. Even if Roddenberry shared none of his will going forward before he died, there is still a skeleton and muscle enough for the franchise to drive in a way that is true to him, and his vision of Star Trek. TNG had him very much so involved, and it is very possible First Contact was a vaulted story of his that would have eventually been part of something anyway. Similarly with the Borg.

DSN, and Voyager were great at showing how the show could stay true to a vision of a man long dead. Clearly, Roddenberry was about shattering cultural and societal conservativism; not surprisingly, his risky showing of Kirk kissing Uhura was ultimately too progressive for the time. But, certainly he had in the plans the stories for a Black Captain/Commander, and a Female Captain. That was the trajectory of the entire franchise: total progressive liberty and an obliteration of prejudices of "yestercentury." Enterprise was too nuanced beyond Roddenberry''s vision, and was thusly eviscerated by fans/ratings.

If we can draw the connection between Star Trek and the Bible - whether consciously or unconsciously done by Roddenberry - then we can also do the same in analyzing from where these ideas originate, exploring the psychologies and philosophies even Roddenberry didn't realize himself. It is fair game for literary analysis.
 
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