tradition vs. relationship

[Zoe Girl]

I'm sure this topic has already been discussed, but I'm a little overwhelmed how much there is on this site so...

I have a friend who is a Catholic, and I am a non-denominational Christian.  We respect each others beliefs, and have often talked about them. 

When I was a teenager we were, again, talking about the differences between our beliefs when she said, "I think it is really sad how your religion has fallen away from practicing the traditions of the church." 

What I didn't think to say until later, after much thinking, was that I think it's sad how the Catholic church is so caught up in the traditional aspect of religion that it is hard to find and have a true relationship with God.

It seems to me that this is one of the biggest differences between Catholics and non-denoms, Catholics focus on tradition, non-denoms focus on relationship.  Of course I know that there are exceptions on each side, but I was wondering what everyone's thoughts are?

(when I say non-denom, I mean born again Bible based Christians, not people who accept all denominations [inter-denom])

 

[Zoe Girl]

"Anyone, anyone..."  -in the words of Ben Stein
 

Okay then, hmmm, how about this:

How do certain denominations justify their (heavy dependence on) traditions when they can cause such a block in experiencing a real relationship with God?  

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Catholics don't put Tradition over a relationship with God. Rather, we preserve what works best to bring one to God. The Catholic Church is the heir to two thousand years worth of experience of Christians working out their faith, starting with the Apostles.

 

[Zoe Girl]

Would you agree, though, that people can get lost in the traditions and never really find God?  Or am I just off (in your opinion, of course )

What is it, to Catholics, that best brings one to God?  Why not skip all the tradition and ceremony and just start talking to Him?

And if I understand the Bible right, the Apostle's faith was based on their relationship with God, not on their religious traditions.  When Jesus came, so many religous traditions that people had to do were finally put aside.  What does it mean to Jesus by bringing a whole new set of traditions back into the picture?  Wasn't Jesus' whole purpose so that all people could reach the Father through Him, not through actions (i.e. traditions or good deeds)?

I'm honestly just curious, not trying to make anyone upset.  I know from experience that there are two types of Catholics (as with any denomination) the true, Godly kind and the kind that just claims to be.  

My mom's side of the family is all Catholic, and when I was a kid going to mass with them was a completley different experience for me than going to my own church.  At mass everything was set up in a very strict order.  Everyone had to say what was already written down, everyone had to pray what was already spoken for them.  It was like a script was there and we all had to follow it.  But at my church, people were free of those traditions and could worship how they wanted, or pray the words they wanted.  I don't know anyone who went from being a born again Christian to being a Catholic (maybe they are out there, I just haven't met them), but I know a lot of people who went from being a Catholic to a born again.  They always say the same thing, that they didn't like the tradition and rituals of the Catholic church because they felt empty, and often like they were a diversion from getting to know God.

Like I said, I'm not trying to upset anyone.  I'm just curious what Catholics think about this, and how they defend their beliefs when confronted with it. 

 

[Auntie]

Today at 12:38 AM Zoe Girl said this in Post #4 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=674492#post674492)


My mom's side of the family is all Catholic, and when I was a kid going to mass with them was a completley different experience for me than going to my own church.  At mass everything was set up in a very strict order.  Everyone had to say what was already written down, everyone had to pray what was already spoken for them.  It was like a script was there and we all had to follow it.  But at my church, people were free of those traditions and could worship how they wanted, or pray the words they wanted.

The freedom in Jesus is wonderful!

Like I said, I'm not trying to upset anyone.  I'm just curious what Catholics think about this, and how they defend their beliefs when confronted with it. 

Here is a link to the forum with doctrinal debates, mostly between Catholics and Protestants. Some of the threads are very interesting, and have answered a lot of questions for me.


"Interdenominational Doctrinal Debate Forum"
http://www.christianforums.com/forums/29.html

 

[shout2thelord]

I know that not all catholic churches get caught up in tradition rather than relationship but all the catholics ive met in my town are like this most of the anglicans are too. One of my teachers was a vicar at school and worked with many different denom churches he said there is only 3 churches alive in the town 1 anglican, 1 baptist (the church i go to when im at home) and 1 pentecostal. I attended an anglican church for 11 years without once hearing about salvation and i know its the same with most of my catholic friends so they totally reject you when you tell them you can have a relationship with jesus and think the baptist church is a cult. (ps. baptist churches here are different to those in america - much more free aparently).

 

[Nathan David]

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

 

[Zoe Girl]

Today at 01:27 AM Auntie said this in Post #5



The freedom in Jesus is wonderful! 

Isn't it?

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Today at 12:38 AM Zoe Girl said this in Post #4 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=674492#post674492)

Would you agree, though, that people can get lost in the traditions and never really find God?  Or am I just off (in your opinion, of course )

If people don't pay attention to their faith, then they can get lost in the traditions. However, this won't happen if if one takes an active interest in one's faith.

What is it, to Catholics, that best brings one to God?  Why not skip all the tradition and ceremony and just start talking to Him?

The thing that brings one to God the best would be becoming one with the Body of Christ through the Eucharist. Catholics also talk to God as well as listen in silence or merely enjoy His presence.

And if I understand the Bible right, the Apostle's faith was based on their relationship with God, not on their religious traditions.  When Jesus came, so many religous traditions that people had to do were finally put aside.  What does it mean to Jesus by bringing a whole new set of traditions back into the picture?  Wasn't Jesus' whole purpose so that all people could reach the Father through Him, not through actions (i.e. traditions or good deeds)?

Many of the traditions of the Catholic Church go back to Jesus and the Apostles. They aren't things arbitrary things that someone thought would be good. Also, I would like to point out that Catholics don't view traditions as obligations or requirements but as opportunities to become closer to God. For example, one does not thank God before meals because it is required but because one is thankful.

I'm honestly just curious, not trying to make anyone upset.  I know from experience that there are two types of Catholics (as with any denomination) the true, Godly kind and the kind that just claims to be.  

My mom's side of the family is all Catholic, and when I was a kid going to mass with them was a completley different experience for me than going to my own church.  At mass everything was set up in a very strict order.  Everyone had to say what was already written down, everyone had to pray what was already spoken for them.  It was like a script was there and we all had to follow it.  But at my church, people were free of those traditions and could worship how they wanted, or pray the words they wanted.  I don't know anyone who went from being a born again Christian to being a Catholic (maybe they are out there, I just haven't met them), but I know a lot of people who went from being a Catholic to a born again.  They always say the same thing, that they didn't like the tradition and rituals of the Catholic church because they felt empty, and often like they were a diversion from getting to know God.

The Mass is just one part of Catholic worship and devotion. It follows the same form so that the entire community can be joined together in their worship. The ritual unites Catholics all around the world as they join in the same prayer. However, there are other ways to worship God within the Catholic Church and one is free worship as one wants in these other ways.

There are many who were part of "born again" churches who came to the Catholic Church after studying the Bible, the history of Christianity, and the teachings of the Catholic Church. If you want, I can find some book recommendations which describe their journeys in their faith.

Like I said, I'm not trying to upset anyone.  I'm just curious what Catholics think about this, and how they defend their beliefs when confronted with it. 

We don't mind defending our faith as long as you ask nicely and don't demand that we defend beliefs that we don't hold (there are a lot of misconceptions running around).

 

[Zoe Girl]

Today at 12:12 PM fragmentsofdreams said this in Post #9 

I would like to point out that Catholics don't view traditions as obligations or requirements but as opportunities to become closer to God. 

I think that's what I was looking for.  I have never seen it that way before.  All I've seen is that if you don't follow the traditions then you aren't really a Christian.

 

[feral]

i'm of the belief that ritual and traditional actions would reinforce your involvement in the church and hence your faith or relationship. see, i went to a baptist church, then christian reformed, and then lutheran, and until the last one there was never anything connecting me. it was "sit down and listen" - not participation or action, so i felt like a spectator in my own church. which, i was...and having not ever worked on faith or really made much effort i still am. but lighting candles, saying certain prayers, rosary beads, hierarchial religious structures - these would seem to reinforce that you are involved in something real, not just languishing in a pew.

 

[undead1]

Yesterday at 06:20 PM Zoe Girl said this in Post #10 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=675085#post675085)

I think that's what I was looking for.  I have never seen it that way before.  All I've seen is that if you don't follow the traditions then you aren't really a Christian.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Its a legitimate view that if you don't follow the "traditions", you aren't a Christian. Of course, that begs the question of what the traditions are. They are laid down in the bible however.

One of them is the tradition that women keep silent in church. I do not acknowledge any pastor or minister who permits women to speak in church to be a Christian, simply because he patently refuses to follow the traditions of the Christian church which the apostles laid down (lesser mortals might be excused on grounds of ignorance and being misled.)

 

[Job_38]

Romans 7. We are freed from the Law.

But, just as the Israelites cried out for a king, we cry out for something to direct us on how to get to God. But its not that, its Gods loving mercy and grace that saves us.

 

[Zoe Girl]

Today at 03:29 PM undead said this in Post #12

One of them is the tradition that women keep silent in church. I do not acknowledge any pastor or minister who permits women to speak in church to be a Christian, simply because he patently refuses to follow the traditions of the Christian church which the apostles laid down (lesser mortals might be excused on grounds of ignorance and being misled.)

Speak in general, or speak as a minister?  Would you be objected to women giving their testamony in front of the church?  What about announcements or saying a prayer or singing a song?  What about different church activities, like youth group or children's church, are they allowed to speak there?

 

[Zoe Girl]

Today at 03:39 PM Job_38 said this in Post #13

Romans 7. We are freed from the Law.

But, just as the Israelites cried out for a king, we cry out for something to direct us on how to get to God. But its not that, its Gods loving mercy and grace that saves us.

That's exactly what I believe, too.  Jesus is the only way to God, made possible through His death, but more importantly because He rose again. 

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Yesterday at 03:39 PM Job_38 said this in Post #13 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=677802#post677802)

Romans 7. We are freed from the Law.

But, just as the Israelites cried out for a king, we cry out for something to direct us on how to get to God. But its not that, its Gods loving mercy and grace that saves us.

What the Catholic Church does is analogous to a friend telling you that something was helpful in his or her relationship with God.

 

[Job_38]

How so?

And I don't want to sound debatious(is that a word?) I don't want a debate, I really want to know.

 

[Zoe Girl]

I just had an interesting conversation with my mom.  I've always known that she grew up a Catholic, and I've always known that when she was pregnant with me she started going to a non-denom church because my dad convinced her to go with him, and from their became a born again Christian.

So I asked her a little bit ago what she thought of Catholics and their heavy reliance on traditions.  She said that when you are raised a Catholic that's all you know, and she wasn't open to other ideas about getting close to God because she had always been taught that if she went to a church of a different denomination that she would be sinning and would go to hell.  (She said that she doesn't remember them saying those exact words, but that the Catholic church left that impression on her.)

After she had been married to my dad for awhile, her grandma wanted to start going to church (she was a catholic, too) and asked my parents to take her.  So they started going to a catholic church together, but my dad (who wasn't religious at all) felt after awhile that he wasn't getting anything out of that church.  The traditions were empty to him because they meant nothing to him, and the traditions were "expected" of my mom because of how she had been raised, but were just "empty actions" done repetitiously because she believed they were what was getting her close to God. 

In both cases, neither were getting closer to God.  So my dad had a friend who invited him to a non-denom church, where the focus is on relationship with God, rather than participating in ceremonies.  And he immediately saw a difference.  He worked on my mom for awhile before she finally gave in and went with him, and the rest is history.

 

[LaceyT]

The traditions were empty to him because they meant nothing to him, and the traditions were "expected" of my mom because of how she had been raised, but were just "empty actions" done repetitiously because she believed they were what was getting her close to God.  

'Zoe Girl' raises an intersting point.  It's the meaning behind the tradition that makes a difference.  I'm not saying you said or did not say this, but traditions can help chrisitians build their relationship with God.  Compare it to familty traditions - they help build family relationships. 

The other important point is looking beyond tradions and understanding why you are doing what you are doing other than for the sake of "because this is the way it's always been done".  I feel traditions can either increase the depth of your relationship with God or hinder it.  It may just be about how much you understand about the tradition(s) and how it furthers your walk with God. 


~Lacey

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Today at 04:13 PM Job_38 said this in Post #17 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=680028#post680028)

How so?

And I don't want to sound debatious(is that a word?) I don't want a debate, I really want to know.

For example, contained within the Mass is two thousand years of reflection on the presence of Christ and our relation with each other as members of the Body of Christ, starting with the Apostles and continuing to this day. The Catholic Church gives us the opportunity to tap into this by offering daily and Sunday Masses.