Towards a biblical view of universalism

[ozso]

There is a problem with absolute universalism. It teaches that you must become a Christian to be saved and that there is no salvation outside of God. But an atheist might not want to become a Christian because he sees things differently than God. Or, a satanist will not be able to choose God because he has better things to do. God has all respect towards an atheist or a satanist, and He is understanding enough to not force them to Himself and His own type of worldview. I am one to defend one's right to be a satanist and atheist, and believe that they do not need to become Christian or please God. They are ensured their eternal happiness, safety, certainty, in their own way and understanding. So, for special cases, there is salvation outside of Christianity and God.

The idea is that once exposed to the full glory of Christ, they'll have an experience like Paul did on the road to Damascus.

 

[Der Alte]

The idea is that once exposed to the full glory of Christ, they'll have an experience like Paul did on the road to Damascus.

Too bad there is not one single vs. of scripture which supports it. Kinda like Linus waiting in the pumpkin patch for the great pumpkin to appear.

 

[ozso]

Too bad there is not one single vs. of scripture which supports it. Kinda like Linus waiting in the pumpkin patch for the great pumpkin to appear.

We've both seen scripture posted to support it.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Jesus said it.
I added nothing.

Let me show you.

Jesus said...>"If i be lifted up (on the Cross) i will draw ALL people to me"..


So, jeff, look up that world "all" and see if you can figure it out.
Take your time.

you see that verse as an offer I see it as a proclamation. Rom 11:32 " For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all" 1 Cor 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" 2 Pet3:9 " The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should parish, but that all should come to repentance." Rom 5:18 "Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men" Col 1:19-22 " God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in him and through him to reconcile to himself all things on earth or in the heavens by Jesus" Acts 3:21 " In Jesus Christ is the restoration of all things ,which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began" Do you mean these ALL

 

[Der Alte]

We've both seen scripture posted to support it.

There ain't one vs. of scripture which supports the flight of fancy that all mankind will experience a Damascus road like experience similar to Paul's. My usual challenge show me a verse, 2 or more, would be better which supports that.

 

[ozso]

There ain't one vs. of scripture which supports the flight of fancy that all mankind will experience a Damascus road like experience similar to Paul's. My usual challenge show me a verse, 2 or more, would be better which supports that.

We've both been in threads that cover this ground, seen verses posted, all of which you of course rejected. But I'm not going to start teaching universalism.

 

[IoanC]

God is "no respecter of persons".... Acts 10:34

The respect God gives you, is to allow you FREE WILL to choose Christ... and be forgiven all of your sin, and go to heaven..... or to not choose Christ and die in your sin and go directly to Hell.

You don't believe in Hell?
Neither did thousands who went there today.....but they believe in it now, and they believe in Jesus also..... now.

How you feel about that, makes no difference.
Truth is not going to bend to your opinion, LoanC

John 14:6 wil be true long after the memory of you is gone from this earth, exactly the same as it was when Jesus said it.

Christians do not have free will to obey Christ, but simply obey God's will. The belief in hell is true for a Christian. Those who are not Christians may find a use for free will and disbelief in hell. Remember, you cannot force someone to believe or think like you. Christ has preached love of enemies and forgiving others in order to be forgiven, which is higher than accepting those who are simply different.

 

[ozso]

Christians do not have free will to obey Christ, but simply obey God's will. The belief in hell is true for a Christian. Those who are not Christians may find a use for free will and disbelief in hell. Remember, you cannot force someone to believe or think like you. Christ has preached love of enemies and forgiving others in order to be forgiven, which is higher than accepting those who are simply different.

I've never seen anyone who believes in universal reconciliation ever suggest force being involved. And I've read them pretty extensively.

Very often I see people refuting things they they never actually say or even imply.

 

[IoanC]

I've never seen anyone who believes in universal reconciliation ever suggest force being involved. And I've read them pretty extensively.

Very often I see people refuting things they they never actually say or even imply.

Perhaps my post wasn't clear. Please, excuse me! I meant Christians simply do God's will; they do not and cannot deliberate between good and evil, between doing and not doing God's will. While satan, demons, "the wicked" in general, do have free will and deliberate between God and their own will. These kind of persons seem to have a different way of being than God's and I suggested that they should not be forced to be something they would not be: Christians. We have love of enemies as a Biblical reference. We are to love our enemies, do good to those who hate us, etc.. There is no place where we are told to convert non-Christians. We can be a light for them and witness to God, as service. And 'do unto them as we would have them do unto us'. This is not a cliche or an impossible utopia, but something very important and a very serious duty for a Christian. We cannot afford anybody going to hell(horrible idea!), and at the same time we cannot force anybody to do something as a condition.

 

[ozso]

Perhaps my post wasn't clear. Please, excuse me! I meant Christians simply do God's will; they do not and cannot deliberate between good and evil, between doing and not doing God's will.

In my over 50 years of Christianity, I've never heard that before.

 

[IoanC]

In my over 50 years of Christianity, I've never heard that before

You might want to research: gnome will in relation to The Holy Angels. God's Angels were created as pure virtues, while demons had free will which has eventually led them away from God. Similarly, this could happen in the human order created by God, but this remains uknown/theoretical.

 

[ozso]

You might want to research: gnome will in relation to The Holy Angels. God's Angels were created as pure virtues, while demons had free will which has eventually led them away from God. Similarly, this could happen in the human order created by God, but this remains uknown/theoretical.

Gnome will? I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, probably because it's esoteric and far away from traditional orthodox theology.

 

[Chaleb]

For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy o

God does not cause you to be disobedient
God is not the author of your sinning

God is the Holy Eedeemer and the Savior and the One who offered Christ as the Blood Atonement, so that the world can be redeemed, one at a time.

That's the Cross of Christ .

 

[Chaleb]

Christians do not have free will to obey Christ,

IF you didnt have free will, then how did you choose what you had to eat today.
How did you choose what clothes you are wearing, right now

And you chose to post to me, and now you chose to read what i just told you.

You need to THINK....as you are not Thinking....as Calvinism has turned off your Thinker.
Calvinism always turns off its victim's MIND.

Wake up.
Time to wake up and Think, loanC.
Start right now.

 

[public hermit]

Gnome will? I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, probably because it's esoteric and far away from traditional orthodox theology.

I think he means gnomic will as explicated by Maximus the Confessor. If he doesn't, he should read the link to familiarize himself with the term.

Gnomic will - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

ETA: I think the distinction between "natural" will and "gnomic" will is helpful. We are free to choose but choosing evil is not the kind of freedom for which we are created. So to say we are free without that qualification blurs the reality that to choose against our own good, or the good of others, is a "freedom " in need of freedom or healing or salvation, however one wants to put it.

 

[ozso]

I think he means gnomic will as explicated by Maximus the Confessor. If he doesn't, he should read the link to familiarize himself with the term.

Gnomic will - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Probably. But that's still pretty esoteric.

 

[ozso]

You might want to research: gnome will in relation to The Holy Angels. God's Angels were created as pure virtues, while demons had free will which has eventually led them away from God. Similarly, this could happen in the human order created by God, but this remains uknown/theoretical.

I doubt any of that comes from scripture. It's something a man came up with in the 6th century. I don't know how it doesn't get confusing with so many Saints coming up with so many unscriptural things for so many centuries after the 5th century.

 

[public hermit]

Probably. But that's still pretty esoteric.

Be that as it may, it's a distinction implicit in a number of early church writings. Our willingness to choose evil is not true freedom but a sign of our spiritual immaturity (Irenaeus) or a spiritual malady in need of healing (Origen/Nyssa).

Why did Jesus always choose the good commensurate with the divine will? Maximus is going to say because he was Logos. And as Jesus said he only does what he sees the Father doing, which is a way of saying he was the Logos of God. The Word or Reason of God can only choose good. That is true freedom. And that is the divine intention for human freedom- to be free in Christ is to be free indeed. All that to say, our experience of the freedom to choose evil is not true freedom.

 

[ozso]

I think he means gnomic will as explicated by Maximus the Confessor. If he doesn't, he should read the link to familiarize himself with the term.

Gnomic will - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

ETA: I think the distinction between "natural" will and "gnomic" will is helpful. We are free to choose but choosing evil is not the kind of freedom for which we are created. So to say we are free without that qualification blurs the reality that to choose against our own good, or the good of others, is a "freedom " in need of freedom or healing or salvation, however one wants to put it.

That's not what he said though as far as I can tell. He said "Christians simply do God's will; they do not and cannot deliberate between good and evil, between doing and not doing God's will.".

 

[public hermit]

That's not what he said though as far as I can tell. He said "Christians simply do God's will; they do not and cannot deliberate between good and evil, between doing and not doing God's will.".

Yeah, I agree with you. That's something else, which is partly why I edited my post that he might familiarize himself with the term/idea.