Towards a biblical view of universalism

[Der Alte]

God works in ages and what you quoted is true for this age, but in the next age things are different that is when everything will be completed and then the scripture will be proved correct that says " every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is lord" and you know the Greek check out the Greek wording it is a joyful agreement not a forced confession. Ask yourself how else will as it says in 1Cor 15 " vs 26the last enemy to be conquered is death... vs28 so that God will be all in all" how will God be all in all if most of his creation is in an eternal torcher chamber ?

Sorry amigo there are no "ages" mentioned in the passage I quoted. It specifically referred to what would happen on "judgement day." Anybody can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by jamming disparate verses together as if they formed a continuous. I do know the Greek. When Jesus makes His enemies, His unwilling footstool will they be voluntarily confessing Jesus as Lord? This must be important it is repeated 6 times. Psa 110:1, Mat 22:44, Mar 12:36, Luk 20:43, Heb 1:13, Heb 10:13. And I can't find one vs. which says those footstools become willing followers.
I have read the end of the book.

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

Last chapter, vs. 11, ten more vss. The End, roll end credits, fade to black. No more death, no more salvation only "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:"

 

[Der Alte]

So once again, you dodge the question in order to hold your position. The simple fact is that only a psychopath of the worst sort would create sentient beings for the sole purpose of seeing them writhe in torment forever. And the simple fact is that God, being all knowing and foreseeing the Fall of Mankind in the Garden, went ahead and created the cosmos anyway, which means that if ECT is true, billions would go into eternal, horrible, unrelenting torment. Foreknowing this fact, it then means that this was His will. You cannot escape that conclusion. And I have seen no one respond to David Bentley Hart's statement to this fact in his first meditation of TASBS. They simply call him names, insult his character, and leave.

Tell me why God is not a psychopath if ECT is true? I'll wait.

Oh, and when God says this in the Scriptures:

John 12: 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Romans 5: 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

2 Corinthians 5: 14-15 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Evidently you cannot quote one vs. 2 or more would be better where the Father, Himself or Jesus, Himself, unequivocally say that all mankind will be saved even after death
I have only quoted scripture, NOT my opinion, not scholars. Only scripture. If you don't like what scripture says then maybe you should have a little talk with Jesus and tell Him all about your troubles and He will hear your faintest cry and He will answer by and by. Anybody can make the Bible say almost anything by quoting selective vss. out-of-context,

 

[Jeff Saunders]

God created us with Free Will.

Jesus went to the Cross, based on Free Will.

So, we have the choice to believe or not.

Heaven and Hell are eternal destinations, regarding our spirit.
Each person chooses which destination, is going to be their's after they die.
How?

"all that believe in Jesus shall be saved". = Heaven

or

John 3:36 for the unbelievers.


God HONORS your free will.
So, choose wisely where you want to go after you die, because GOD will honor your choice for as long as He lives

Believe it.

so mans will is greater than Gods

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Sorry amigo there are no "ages" mentioned in the passage I quoted. It specifically referred to what would happen on "judgement day." Anybody can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by jamming disparate verses together as if they formed a continuous. I do know the Greek. When Jesus makes His enemies, His unwilling footstool will they be voluntarily confessing Jesus as Lord? This must be important it is repeated 6 times. Psa 110:1, Mat 22:44, Mar 12:36, Luk 20:43, Heb 1:13, Heb 10:13. And I can't find one vs. which says those footstools become willing followers.
I have read the end of the book.

Revelation 22:11​

(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

Last chapter, vs. 11, ten more vss. The End, roll end credits, fade to black. No more death, no more salvation only "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:"

I will not go over this again we have done it many times , if you don't understand how God works through ages then this can go no further.

 

[Der Alte]

so mans will is greater than Gods

Jeremiah 13:11-14, Matthew 7:21-23, Romans 1:24, Romans 1:26, Romans 1:28.

 

[Der Alte]

I will not go over this again we have done it many times , if you don't understand how God works through ages then this can go no further.

Show me a few verses where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, said anything about "ages" which refutes anything I have posted. I won't hold my breath.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Jesus is the universal offer of Salvation.
God offers the Cross as Salvation to everyone, for 2000 yrs.

John 3:16-17

Not everyone will go and receive the Offer

Notice.

John 3:36

You have to add to scripture for it to say that Jesus was a universal offer of salvation, when scripture is very clear in more than one place that Jesus is the savior of the world. what he did offer was do you want to be part of his kingdom and rule and rein with Jesus on his throne or do you want to be a subject of that kingdom by route of the lake of fire. that is where our free will comes into play, its not an offer of heaven or hell that is a faulty western tradition handed down from Augustine.

 

[Der Alte]

You have to add to scripture for it to say that Jesus was a universal offer of salvation, when scripture is very clear in more than one place that Jesus is the savior of the world. what he did offer was do you want to be part of his kingdom and rule and rein with Jesus on his throne or do you want to be a subject of that kingdom by route of the lake of fire. that is where our free will comes into play, its not an offer of heaven or hell that is a faulty western tradition handed down from Augustine.

You are quite mistaken. The concept of a place of fiery eternal punishment was handed down by Jews from at least 800 years B.C. In Luke 16 Jesus mentioned a rich man being in hades tormented in flames from which he could not escape. FYI in the 225BC LXX the Hebrew word "sheol" is written as "hades." If such a place did not exist why would Jesus use something false to teach the truth?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Show me a few verses where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, said anything about "ages" which refutes anything I have posted. I won't hold my breath.

2 Cor 4:4 the God of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers /Eph 3:9 mystery which for ages past was kept hidden /Gal 1:4 Jesus gave himself to rescue us from the present evil age /1 Cor 1:20 Where is the scribe? Where is the philosopher of this age / Heb 6:5 tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come/ these are a few vs that shows God works in ages most are for this age some are for the age to come .

 

[Jeff Saunders]

You are quite mistaken. The concept of a place of fiery eternal punishment was handed down by Jews from at least 800 years B.C. In Luke 16 Jesus mentioned a rich man being in hades tormented in flames from which he could not escape. FYI in the 225BC LXX the Hebrew word "sheol" is written as "hades." If such a place did not exist why would Jesus use something false to teach the truth?

you know that I go by the early church definition of aion not your latter translation of eternal

 

[Der Alte]

2 Cor 4:4 the God of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers /Eph 3:9 mystery which for ages past was kept hidden /Gal 1:4 Jesus gave himself to rescue us from the present evil age /1 Cor 1:20 Where is the scribe? Where is the philosopher of this age / Heb 6:5 tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come/ these are a few vs that shows God works in ages most are for this age some are for the age to come .

Now show me how these vss. specifically contradict anything I posted?
Here are the vss. again. Jeremiah 13:11-14, Matthew 7:21-23, Romans 1:24, Romans 1:26, Romans 1:28.

 

[Der Alte]

you know that I go by the early church definition of aion not your latter translation of eternal

Not talking about "aion." Prove it? How about Origen's definition of "aionios?"

Origen Commentary On The Gospel Of John Book Thirteen
(59) He is not wrong, however, when he says that the water that the Savior gives is of his spirit and power..[John 4:13-14]
(60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.
(61) He would be correct when he grants that the first life perishes if he meant that life which is according to the letter, when it seeks and discovers the life according to the Spirit by the removal of the veil. But, if he is accusing the ancient words of passing out of existence all together, it is clear that he does this because he does not perceive that those good words contain the shadow of future things. Pg. 82​

Origen said that the aionios zoe [eternal life] Jesus gives in John 4:13-14 "never perishes 2x, remains, not taken away, not consumed.

 

[Chaleb]

so mans will is greater than Gods

Free will comes from God.

Free will is a dangerous situation if not used properly, as it can get you killed, jailed, or damned.

John 3:36

 

[Chaleb]

You have to add to scripture for it to say that Jesus was a universal offer of salvation,

Jesus said it.
I added nothing.

Let me show you.

Jesus said...>"If i be lifted up (on the Cross) i will draw ALL people to me"..


So, jeff, look up that world "all" and see if you can figure it out.
Take your time.

 

[IoanC]

There is a problem with absolute universalism. It teaches that you must become a Christian to be saved and that there is no salvation outside of God. But an atheist might not want to become a Christian because he sees things differently than God. Or, a satanist will not be able to choose God because he has better things to do. God has all respect towards an atheist or a satanist, and He is understanding enough to not force them to Himself and His own type of worldview. I am one to defend one's right to be a satanist and atheist, and believe that they do not need to become Christian or please God. They are ensured their eternal happiness, safety, certainty, in their own way and understanding. So, for special cases, there is salvation outside of Christianity and God.

 

[Chaleb]

God has all respect towards an atheist or a satanist,

God is "no respecter of persons".... Acts 10:34

The respect God gives you, is to allow you FREE WILL to choose Christ... and be forgiven all of your sin, and go to heaven..... or to not choose Christ and die in your sin and go directly to Hell.

You don't believe in Hell?
Neither did thousands who went there today.....but they believe in it now, and they believe in Jesus also..... now.

How you feel about that, makes no difference.
Truth is not going to bend to your opinion, LoanC

John 14:6 wil be true long after the memory of you is gone from this earth, exactly the same as it was when Jesus said it.

 

[IoanC]

God is "no respecter of persons".... Acts 10:34

The respect God gives you, is to allow you FREE WILL to choose Christ... and be forgiven all of your sin, and go to heaven..... or to not choose Christ and die in your sin and go directly to Hell.

You don't believe in Hell?
Neither did thousands who went there today.....but they believe in it now, and they believe in Jesus also..... now.

How you feel about that, makes no difference.
Truth is not going to bend to your opinion, LoanC

John 14:6 wil be true long after the memory of you is gone from this earth, exactly the same as it was when Jesus said it.

Well, religious views are ideological and hermetic. Real life is different: either you are normal and truly loving according to a beating heart, or you will generate all sorts of weird behaviour.

 

[Chaleb]

Well, religious views are ideological and hermetic. Real life is different: either you are normal and truly loving according to a beating heart, or you will generate all sorts of weird behaviour.

Here is what God says about the human heart.. """ The heart is deceitful above all things.... and beyond cure.....who can understand it""

If you live to follow your heart's content, you will be a slave to lust because the heart wants what it wants and does not consider right or wrong or consequence.

AS a matter of fact, its so dark and so deceptive, that God has to give you a new one.
How?
He gives you a spiritual birth and imparts into the human heart His divine nature, and the believer is born again as a "new Creation".
To do this, God has to perform a miracle on you..He has to separate your spirit from your carnal nature that is the human heart.

Find that here...... Colossians 2:11

That is the "new Birth"......

That is to be born again into the Spirit of God, by the Holy Spirit of God.

Without this birth, you dont go to heaven.

Jesus said....."you must be born again".

 

[IoanC]

Here is what God says about the human heart.. """ The heart is deceitful above all things.... and beyond cure.....who can understand it""

If you live to follow your heart's content, you will be a slave to lust because the heart wants what it wants and does not consider right or wrong or consequence.

AS a matter of fact, its so dark and so deceptive, that God has to give you a new one.
How?
He gives you a spiritual birth and imparts into the human heart His divine nature, and the believer is born again as a "new Creation".
To do this, God has to perform a miracle on you..He has to separate your spirit from your carnal nature that is the human heart.

Find that here...... Colossians 2:11

That is the "new Birth"......

That is to be born again into the Spirit of God, by the Holy Spirit of God.

Without this birth, you dont go to heaven.

Jesus said....."you must be born again".

But, why is one forced to go to heaven? Why is it the only good option?

 

[Chaleb]

But, why is one forced to go to heaven? Why is it the only good option?

Calvin.....John Calvin is the author of that nonsense you just stated.

Do not blame God or Christ for that infidel's Cross Denying theology

The fact is, God gave you free will and the Cross of Christ.
Do with those what you will do.....as its up to you........... and God will honor your Free Will choice now and after you die.

2 Corinthians 6:2