Totus Tuus sum Maria

[Gold Dragon]

Lockheed, I must commend you on a very fair analysis of this often emotionally divisive topic.

 

[Metanoia02]

Lockheed,

We do not consult the saints. We do not have conversations with them. We simply ask them to pray for us.

 

[Lockheed]

Lockheed,

We do not consult the saints. We do not have conversations with them. We simply ask them to pray for us.

Excellent, then the fact that Christ appeared with Elijah and Moses should be stricken from every Catholic e-poligist's book of arguments?

In honesty, however, there have been apparitions of saints and Mary in which said indivdiuals allegedly had bi-directional communication, including but not limited to the Fatima apparition in Portugal. Secondly, a website for common Catholic prayers lists the following:



Prayers to angels:

Holy Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray; and do you, O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God cast into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who wander through the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.


We, thy happy clients, yearn to enjoy thy special protection. Obtain for us from God a share of thy sturdy courage; pray that we may have a strong and tender love for our Redeemer and, in every danger or temptation, be invincible against the enemy of our souls. (to Michael)

​

To Mary

O Virgin Immaculate, Mother of God and my Mother, from your sublime heights turn your eyes of pity on my. Filled with confidence in your goodness and knowing full well your power, I beg you to extend to me your assistance in the journey of life, which is so full of dangers for my soul.... Saint Ephraem of Edessa




In every engagement with the infernal powers, we shall always certainly conquer by having recourse to the Mother of God, Who is also our Mother, saying and repeating again and again: "We fly to thy patronage, O holy Mother of God: we fly to thy patronage, O holy Mother of God." Oh how many victories have not the faithful gained over hell, by having recourse to Mary with this short but most powerful prayer! Thus is was that the great servant of god, Sister Mary Crucified, of the Order of St. Benedict, always overcame the devils. - St. Alphonsus Liguori in Hail Holy

Mother of Perpetual Help, you have been blessed and favored by God. You became not only the Mother of the Redeemer, but the Mother of the redeemed as well. We come to you today as you loving children. Watch over us and take care of us...

​

To Saints

Good St. Anne, you were especially favored by God to be the mother of the most holy Virgin Mary, the Mother of our Savior. By your power with your most pure daughter and with her divine Son, kindly obtain for us the grace and the favor we now seek. Please secure for us also forgiveness of our past sins, the strength to perform faithfully our daily duties and the help we need to persevere in the love of Jesus and Mary. Amen.




...I promise you, O blessed St. Jude, to be ever mindful of this great favor, and I will never cease to honor you as my special and powerful patron and to do all in my power to encourage devotion to you. Amen.

Relying on Your goodness, O God, we humbly ask you, by the intercession of your servant, Saint Lucy, to give perfect vision to our eyes, that we may serve for your greater honor and glory...

​

The website, "catholic.org", has many stories of 'encounters' with angels and prayers to them. Along with the alleged visions of folks like Anne Catherine Emmerich who, according to Newadvent.org "counseled in a mysterious way the successor of St. Peter...(and) converse(d) familiarly with the Child Jesus."

You may not converse with the Saints or Mary, but it is Catholic doctrine that one can. My point, again, is not to repudiate you specifically, or what you believe but to honestly portray the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church in the light of Scripture and prepare my fellow Baptists so that they can intelligently discuss these matters with their Roman Catholic friends without presenting strawmen arguments.

 

[Matthan]

She has a special place in Christianity. She obeyed the words of Gabriel. She gave birth to Jesus. She took part in his first miracle. She raised him as a child. She witnessed his death on the cross.

I don't worship or pray to Mary, but she holds a place in Christianity. Maybe a little overemphasized in Catholicism and a little underemphasized by some Baptists.

GD, if you go back and read my post, you will see that I gave Mary full credit for being the earthly mother of Jesus. But she does not have any place in Christianity, which is our belief in Jesus as the only begotten Son of God. If we believe in Him, we are given God's grace to eternal life. Mary does not fit into THAT situation, at least not to my way of thinking....

Matthan <J><

 

[BBAS 64]

Before I start I am sorry I was disresepctful to you yesterday. I should have said what I said in another way, and I regret saying it in that manner.

Good Day, Uncle Bud

Thank you very much for the kindness you have extended here

Apples and oranges. The LDS is not by any means a Christian organization, and the Catholic church is. To say that they are not is to say that there was a lull or a non-Christian influenence in the world for hundreds of years before our denominations were formed. Are there errors int eh Catholic church. Yes. Roughly 95% of Marian doctrines are in my opinion 100% false. I do not agree with Papal supremecy, praying to saints, yadda, yadda, but to say that they are going to hell is IMHO pathetic.

Once again, JMHO

I do not see it as apples and oranges, I agree that the LDS is not presenting a true Gospel in the things that it teaches and by extention underminds the very nature of the truth and of God in the things that it teaches as doctrine and are in error.

I do not have to say there was a non Christian influence in the world for hundrends of years, you assume that the teaching of the RCC are the same today as they were in the days past.

If IYO 95 % of the Marian dogma that has been promulgated for the last 400 years, and enbraced and expanded by the last Bishop of Rome to the th' degree are in 100% error and I assume that you draw some support from Scripture.

Do you also believe that this action by Rome has no effect on the nature of the truth and by extention God himself in any way shape or form? I never said that any one was going to hell expictly, what I said that if one belives contray to the Faith one given to the saints then we should contend for that Faith.

From the writting of John Paul:

This prayer was written by the Holy Father to
Mary Immaculate

Totally yours,
Immaculate Conception, Mary my Mother,
Live in me, Act in me,
Speak in me and through me,
Think your thoughts in my mind,
Love through my heart,
Give me your dispositions and feelings,
Teach, lead me and guide me to Jesus,
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior,
Possess my soul,
Take over my entire personality and life, replace it with Yourself,
Incline me to constant adoration,
Pray in me and through me,
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.

http://prayers.viarosa.com/TotusTuus.html

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Lockheed]

GD, if you go back and read my post, you will see that I gave Mary full credit for being the earthly mother of Jesus. But she does not have any place in Christianity, which is our belief in Jesus as the only begotten Son of God. If we believe in Him, we are given God's grace to eternal life. Mary does not fit into THAT situation, at least not to my way of thinking....

Matthan <J><

Well... as for not having a "place in Christianity", I would disagree with such language. Just as the woman who washed Christ's feet and of her He said: "wherever the gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be spoken of in memory of her". I believe the same must be said of Mary who is indeed Christ's mother, the chosen vessel of the Holy Spirit. She's an example of Christian faithfulness and devotion.

However, in other respects I firmly agree.

 

[BBAS 64]

Lockheed,

We do not consult the saints. We do not have conversations with them. We simply ask them to pray for us.

Good Day, Met

I have a quick question if you do not mind, from your point of view why ask, if praying is a good thing to do should "they" do it with out a request from you?

I hope I have asked that clearly,

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Metanoia02]

Good Day, Met

I have a quick question if you do not mind, from your point of view why ask, if praying is a good thing to do should "they" do it with out a request from you?

I hope I have asked that clearly,

Peace to u,

Bill

I do think they pray for us even if we don't ask. We are as you know a communion of saints. We pray for each other, even people we don't know. If I understand your question "why bother if they are already praying for you?". Good question. Personally I feel as though they are my brothers and sisters like the ones I have here on earth that I ask to pray for me. We all share a divine filiation as children of God. Although I do not pretend to know fully what happens on the "other side", I am comforted that I can ask the siants through out the ages to pray for me, even if they are already doing it.

 

[aReformedPatriot]

This prayer was written by the Holy Father to
Mary Immaculate

Totally yours,
Immaculate Conception, Mary my Mother,
Live in me, Act in me,
Speak in me and through me,
Think your thoughts in my mind,
Love through my heart,
Give me your dispositions and feelings,
Teach, lead me and guide me to Jesus,
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior,
Possess my soul,
Take over my entire personality and life, replace it with Yourself,
Incline me to constant adoration,
Pray in me and through me,
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.

http://prayers.viarosa.com/TotusTuus.html

I'd never say a prayer worded as such. Id change out Mary for the Holy Ghost, at least then it'd be biblically sound.

 

[Lockheed]

I do think they pray for us even if we don't ask. We are as you know a communion of saints. We pray for each other, even people we don't know.

Please address my previous post, I think I clearly outlined that neither are we commended, commanded or even claimed able to pray to the "dead in Christ" nor do they have share of what goes on here.

If I understand your question "why bother if they are already praying for you?". Good question. Personally I feel as though they are my brothers and sisters like the ones I have here on earth that I ask to pray for me. We all share a divine filiation as children of God. Although I do not pretend to know fully what happens on the "other side", I am comforted that I can ask the siants through out the ages to pray for me, even if they are already doing it.

Please provide Scriptural support for this belief.

 

[SumTinWong]

I do not see it as apples and oranges, I agree that the LDS is not presenting a true Gospel in the things that it teaches and by extention underminds the very nature of the truth and of God in the things that it teaches as doctrine and are in error.

So do alot of Baptists, Bill. There are doctrinal errors that the Baptist churches teach as well, are they now a cult?

I do not have to say there was a non Christian influence in the world for hundrends of years, you assume that the teaching of the RCC are the same today as they were in the days past.

Not necessarily the truth. I do not assume they have been consistant, but present. Many of the same practices they have today stem from practices back then. The historical writings of the ECF prove this.

If IYO 95 % of the Marian dogma that has been promulgated for the last 400 years, and enbraced and expanded by the last Bishop of Rome to the th' degree are in 100% error and I assume that you draw some support from Scripture.

Common sense, reason, and scripture, yes I draw from all of these.

Do you also believe that this action by Rome has no effect on the nature of the truth and by extention God himself in any way shape or form?

No the truth will always remain. Whether or not people will see the truth, that is different.

I never said that any one was going to hell expictly, what I said that if one belives contray to the Faith one given to the saints then we should contend for that Faith.

Well you did applauad the people for standing up for what they believed in and did not seperate yourself from that stance they took, so it was logical to assume you agreed.

 

[Metanoia02]

Please address my previous post, I think I clearly outlined that neither are we commended, commanded or even claimed able to pray to the "dead in Christ" nor do they have share of what goes on here.



Please provide Scriptural support for this belief.

Sorry, but this is not the place to debate this. This is your forum. Thank you for letting me participate up to this point. By the looks of it you have studied this debate point-counterpoint and it would not serve any purpose to have a debate over something that has been debated to death.

 

[SumTinWong]

Please provide Scriptural support for this belief.

Why go there when you know only Protestants are bound to scripture alone?

 

[Lockheed]

So do alot of Baptists, Bill. There are doctrinal errors that the Baptist churches teach as well, are they now a cult?

There's a clear difference between an occasional 'doctrinal error' and an error declared as a dogma. When the Roman Catholic church declares that belief in the Immaculate Conception is a dogma, and something that must be believed for salvation, that's one thing. Its another level all together to state: "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema."

This isn't a dispute over which version of the Bible is better, this is the declaration that sinners are justified not by faith alone but by faith plus 'action' and the condemnation of those who believe as Martin Luther did.

Of course, the tragedy here is that many modern evangelicals don't see anything wrong with such statements. Surely the Reformation was all a misunderstanding?

Not necessarily the truth. I do not assume they have been consistant, but present. Many of the same practices they have today stem from practices back then. The historical writings of the ECF prove this.

But the Catholic belief is not just that they have similar beliefs or that they stem from practices back then but that there has been a universal, unbroken faith throughout history. The dogmas of the Roman Catholic church are said to be based on the "universal consent" of the ECFs... the writings of those same ECFs disprove this. One can, however, read the ECFs and impose upon their writings beliefs which did not develop until much later, as is often the case with said dogmas. The very fact that the ECFs debated on the identity of the "Rock" in the book of Matthew proves that the foundation for the Papacy and thus Papal infallibility and the other related dogmas are later developments.

Common sense, reason, and scripture, yes I draw from all of these.

Keep in mind that the Marian dogmas were declared in the 1950s and have not been universally held by the Roman Catholic church, whatsoever. The very idea that there is a mediatrix of 'all graces' through whom salvation comes to all believers should cause us concern... if nothing else the ongoing re-presentation and re-sacrifice of the Mass most certainly should.

Well you did applauad the people for standing up for what they believed in and did not seperate yourself from that stance they took, so it was logical to assume you agreed.

There are a lot of "good people" in this world, but salvation is based on grace, not works.

 

[aReformedPatriot]

Why go there when you know only Protestants are bound to scripture alone?

I do think they draw it out of the Apocrypha somewhere. But I wouldnt place money on it. Perhaps someone could PM me an apocryphal proof-text (if it doesnt stem from tradition) as I'd be interested in saving it for myself anyways.

 

[SumTinWong]

There's a clear difference between an occasional 'doctrinal error' and an error declared as a dogma.

I am not talking of occasional errors I am talking of faulty Baptist doctrines, that are still held today.

There are a lot of "good people" in this world, but salvation is based on grace, not works.

In your humble opinion, I assume? Either way a Catholic would agree with you if you would shut up long enough to listen. They believe that it is by God's grace that we are saved.

 

[Lockheed]

Why go there when you know only Protestants are bound to scripture alone?

Exactly... Therefore if the Catholic wishes to provide an infallible interpretation stating that the verses I've provided say otherwise, perhaps we can start there.

 

[Lockheed]

I am not talking of occasional errors I am talking of faulty Baptist doctrines, that are still held today.

Like?

There are a lot of "good people" in this world, but salvation is based on grace, not works.

In your humble opinion, I assume?

No, on the basis of what Christ and His apostles state in the God-breathed word. It is not my opinion that I seek to promote, but the Word of God.

Either way a Catholic would agree with you if you would shut up long enough to listen.

Yah... that's the ticket.

They believe that it is by God's grace that we are saved. They also believe they we co-operate with God, towards our salvation, and on that I happen to agree.

Of course you do.... and this was the hinge of the Reformation.

Romans 11:6
But it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

 

[Lockheed]

Not anymore they're not. Where O Death is thy sting?! Things have changed thanks be to Jesus Christ.

Yet they are "asleep" and "dead in Christ", when was the last time your sleeping aquaintance interceded on your behalf?

 

[SteveR2021]

Yet they are "asleep" and "dead in Christ", when was the last time your sleeping aquaintance interceded on your behalf?

I presume you believe in 'soul sleep'?