Lockheed said:
I have... I maintain a message board elsewhere, and have had many communications with Roman Catholics on this subject. Here's my findings and some helpful tips for fellow Baptists on considering the doctrine of 'communion of the saints' as presented by the Roman church.
--
Roman Catholics are quick to note that they do not "worship" the saints. They will however state that they pay honor to them. The theological term used to express honour paid to the saints is "dulia", while "latria" means worship given to God alone, and "hyperdulia" the veneration offered to the Blessed Virgin Mary. Yet even this is far from explaining prayers directed to dead saints and the mother of Christ.
Exo 20: 4
"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
Keep in mind that when the children of Israel made and worshiped the golden calf they called it YHWH, the Lord who brought them out of Egypt. They claimed to be worshiping God, they never claimed to be worshiping an idol.
In fact, no one worships an idol, they use the idol as a gestalt or means to consider the one they are worshiping or contacting. We should be very careful therefore to consider what it is we 'use' when attempting to worship the invisible God.
Yes, I realize that Catholics claim not to be 'worshiping' Mary or the saints, even while saying they honor the saints with dulia and Mary with hyper-dulia they're doing service to them, paying homage to them. So removing the whole question of "worship" out of the equation, the indication from Scripture is that the dead should not be contacted.
Isa 8:19
When they say to you, "Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter," should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Surely one could say "well we don't use mediums or spiritists to pray to saints", but regardless, the point of this verse is to show that the people of God should consult Him.
The usual rebuttal to this is "well, we're all alive in Christ, God is not the God of the dead but the living." And we Protestants and Baptists agree, the saints in heaven are, in a sense, alive, but they are also physically "dead".
The Apostle Paul, in seeking to comfort those believers who recently lost loved ones either to disease or martyrdom says:
1 Thes. 4:13-19
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
In this passage in 1 Thes. Paul establishes our doctrine of the death of believers and the hope we have. Paul contrasts "those who are alive and remain" with those "dead in Christ" who "have fallen asleep."
Notice what Paul
does not say... he does not say "don't mourn for the dead, you can pray to them for their intercession", he says that they will rise again.
We recognize that the dead in Christ are in fact spiritually alive and now in the presence of the Almighty, just as John writes in Revelation:
Rev 6:9-10
When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
Yet maintaining that the believing dead are in fact
spiritually alive and with Christ now in no way negates the fact that they are also physically dead. Paul calls them 'asleep' and by this he means in relation to us (not that their soul sleeps). Just as a wife or husband who has fallen asleep, one cannot very well ask them to intercede on your behalf unless they are first awakened.
Therefore the believers who die are, in fact, physically dead, thus the passage of Isa 8:19 must apply. Likewise Ecc 9:5-6...
Ecc 9:5-6
For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.
The dead are cut-off from us, they have no understanding nor do they share in what goes on here.
The final Roman Catholic response is to point out that Christ spoke with Elijah and Moses on the mount of transfiguration. We might also do well to note that Saul had the spirit of Samuel brought up to consult, thus there are occasions in which God allows those on Earth to glimpse and communicate with the dead, yet it is not normative. In fact of these two occasions we can only be sure of the Christ's encounter as what happened with the witch at En-dor remains questionable and is clearly not something the Roman Catholic would want tied to their belief.
So, Christ appeared and spoke with Elijah and Moses on the mount of transfiguration... so what? How does this, in any way, establish the idea that the dead can hear prayers and intercede on behalf of the living? One must note that in the passage Elijah represents the prophets and Moses represents the Law, thus fulfilling prophecy and God's plan. Jesus, God incarnate, was not establishing a doctrine of ongoing communication of believers with the dead by standing with Moses and Eljiah.
Finally, keep in mind that the ongoing 'communion' between the dead saints is an official doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, it is not a particular schism of individuals. Therefore, while seeking to promote the truth of Scripture, do not mistake the Church's official teachings with specific stubborness on the part of individuals. Always seek to express these truths in a respectful manner.
