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Jake255

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Yes, and we all continue to make mistakes, screw up, falter, and get things wrong now and then. We are often playing the part of the faithless adulteress when it comes to our devotion to Christ.

-CryptoLutheran
You don't have to though, God tells us He will give us a way out of temptation.
Yes, we can sin, He forgives us, but our sin window should be getting smaller and smaller, we should be growing, conforming to Him.
We are told over and over again in the NT that we are saints, not sinners. We're not self-defeated, we're Christ infested!
 
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CryptoLutheran

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You don't have to though, God tells us He will give us a way out of temptation.
Yes, we can sin, He forgives us, but our sin window should be getting smaller and smaller, we should be growing, conforming to Him.
We are told over and over again in the NT that we are saints, not sinners. We're not self-defeated, we're Christ infested!

We are simul iustus et peccator, both saints and sinners. In Christ we have been made perfect, sinless, free and liberated from all the powers of this world, and yet the old man, Adam, continues in our flesh. The old man and the new war with one another in us, as the Apostle says in his epistle to the Romans,

"What I do, I do not understand. For I do not do what I want, but I do what I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I concur that the law is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that the good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh. The willing is ready at hand, but doing the good is not. For I do not do the good that I want, but I do the evil I do not want. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. So, then, I discover the principle that when I want to do right, evil is at hand. For I take delight in the law of God, in my inner self, but I see in my members another principle at war with the law of my mind, taking me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Miserable one that I am! Who will deliver me from this death-ridden body? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore, I myself, with my mind, serve the law of God, but with my flesh, the law of sin. Hence, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ has freed you from the law of sin and death. For what the law, weakened by the flesh, was powerless to do, this God has done: by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for the sake of sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous decree of the law might be fulfilled in us, who live not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." - Romans 7:15 - 8:4

It is only in Christ that I am free of sin, but in my flesh, in my mortal state, I am a sinner, a slave to sin who needs forgiveness, who needs grace. I need the Gospel every hour of every day to proclaim to me the salvation I so desperately need which is found only in Jesus Christ.

As Martin Luther wrote to his friend Philip Melancthon,

"If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner." AD 1521

We must also remember the words of St. John who reminds us:

"If we say we are without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we acknowledge our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." - 1 John 1:8

This is not to make excuse for sinning, but to understand the reality of our current estate. We are sinners, mighty bold sinners, in need of the grace that comes from our Father above through His one and only Son, our Lord Jesus, who for our sake became flesh, dwelt among us, was crucified, buried and rose again. Because in Him only is there eternal life and victory, which by His good mercy He gives to us out of His great love for us, making us partakers in God's life, God's mercy, God's grace and God's immortality: and yet we continue to sin. We will continue to sin, continue to fail, continue to be faithless right up until the day we expire or come the Parousia.

That's the reality, and for that account we must have our eyes firmly fixed on Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith. In Christ only are we alive and free, and yet in our flesh we are dead--and this until the Day of the Lord Jesus when the body shall rise and the restoration of all things is accomplished by our God. What St. Paul calls the redemption of our mortal bodies.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Jake255

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Crypto,
I hear what you are saying, however God says to be Holy as He is Holy, be perfect as He is perfect, so is God asking us to do something that He would deem impossible for us to do, no, because He also says that with God all things are possible, so as we are conforming to Christ, we are becoming Holy as He has asked us to do. If all things are possible with Christ, as He has told us in His written Word, are you saying then all things are possible EXCEPT for becoming sinless while we are here on earth?
 
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CryptoLutheran

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The Russians have a word, podvig, roughly translated as "struggle" but encapsulates the notion of spiritual struggle, the fact that the Christian life is one of constant struggle within us between following Christ and following ourselves and our sin.

The Christian life is a struggle, and it will always be a struggle, and because of this we must always turn toward Christ, we must always die daily to repentance. We must always seek forgiveness, repentance; always turn toward Christ.

The simple fact is that nobody, except our Lord Jesus, has ever been sinless. No one, no not one, has ever in this life been free of sin.

It is a theology of glory that says if we just try hard enough that we can reach the perfection found in God, and all theologies of glory are empty and vain. It is the theology of the cross, the true theology, that reminds us that no matter how hard we try we won't reach that place. There is no work, no effort, no energy expended that can bring us closer to God; only Christ who has been crucified and risen from the dead can reconcile us to God and it is He who brings God near to us.

That's why the Gospel is liberating, because it tells us what God has done for us, what God continues to do for us, and what God will do for us.

Certainly, should God snap His fingers He could bring each and every one of us into the state of perfection instantaneously--but He doesn't.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Jake255

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God could cause us all to be perfect instantly, yet if He did, we would not be conforming to Christ's image, as it is, we are to suffer, in suffering we persevere, in perseverance we are perfected.

It is not us who is perfecting us, it is Christ, it is no longer "I", it is Him. The more I know Him, the more I grow in my faith, the more I know of my need for Him.

So, would you say, it is possible, that through Him, He working in us, conforming us, that it is He who is perfecting us, and not "us" doing the work, it is all Him, if He is perfect, He is living in us, then why would it be that we would not become as He is, as the Bible says we are conforming to His image? Why would He, in us, fall short of perfection? After all, it is a new nature now, not a sinful one.
 
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Ormly

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Human beings that are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, when we are saved we are taking on Christ's nature, we are saved INTO Christ. Human? yes, but we are conforming to His image.

It is no longer I that lives, but Christ who lives in me, we were dead and made alive again in Him, raised from our old nature, into His nature.

I believe this, Jake: Paul spoke this:: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his". Romans 8:9 (KJV)

I like your comment and understanding re old nature-new nature. I believe that and it has helped me to understand Romans 7, to see what Paul is trying to convey in that our soul has room for only one nature.

Moving on to your above remarks:

Christ saves because we choose Him. However, I am persuaded, from my own life experiences, He chooses us for the new birth of Himself per John 3:3,5. I think this because I see the new birth as being His pledge to us that He would never leave us nor forsake us. So it boils down to me asking this question: after the 'sinners prayer' is finished, How much do I really want Him in my life? I mean, it is not a question of whether or not I was sincere in asking for His salvation but, my life is good. I enjoy it. I want it like it is. BUT, now I find I want Him too. Who or what do you think will win out in the end___Do you see me still as being 'born again'? . . especially given the attitude of the modern church?
 
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Ormly

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And yet you and I continue to sin, make mistakes, act faithless, screw up and fail at following Jesus as we should.

-CryptoLutheran

Have you read Romans 7? Notice what's missing in Paul's writing of what is missing in his disposition in describing his difficulty?
 
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Ormly

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Yes, and we all continue to make mistakes, screw up, falter, and get things wrong now and then. We are often playing the part of the faithless adulteress when it comes to our devotion to Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

It is called 'sinning' and not 'making mistakes'.
 
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Ormly

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We are simul iustus et peccator, both saints and sinners. In Christ we have been made perfect, sinless, free and liberated from all the powers of this world, and yet the old man, Adam, continues in our flesh. The old man and the new war with one another in us, as the Apostle says in his epistle to the Romans,

"What I do, I do not understand. For I do not do what I want, but I do what I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I concur that the law is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that the good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh. The willing is ready at hand, but doing the good is not. For I do not do the good that I want, but I do the evil I do not want. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. So, then, I discover the principle that when I want to do right, evil is at hand. For I take delight in the law of God, in my inner self, but I see in my members another principle at war with the law of my mind, taking me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Miserable one that I am! Who will deliver me from this death-ridden body? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore, I myself, with my mind, serve the law of God, but with my flesh, the law of sin. Hence, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ has freed you from the law of sin and death. For what the law, weakened by the flesh, was powerless to do, this God has done: by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for the sake of sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous decree of the law might be fulfilled in us, who live not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." - Romans 7:15 - 8:4

It is only in Christ that I am free of sin, but in my flesh, in my mortal state, I am a sinner, a slave to sin who needs forgiveness, who needs grace. I need the Gospel every hour of every day to proclaim to me the salvation I so desperately need which is found only in Jesus Christ.

As Martin Luther wrote to his friend Philip Melancthon,

"If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner." AD 1521

We must also remember the words of St. John who reminds us:

"If we say we are without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we acknowledge our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." - 1 John 1:8

This is not to make excuse for sinning, but to understand the reality of our current estate. We are sinners, mighty bold sinners, in need of the grace that comes from our Father above through His one and only Son, our Lord Jesus, who for our sake became flesh, dwelt among us, was crucified, buried and rose again. Because in Him only is there eternal life and victory, which by His good mercy He gives to us out of His great love for us, making us partakers in God's life, God's mercy, God's grace and God's immortality: and yet we continue to sin. We will continue to sin, continue to fail, continue to be faithless right up until the day we expire or come the Parousia.

That's the reality, and for that account we must have our eyes firmly fixed on Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith. In Christ only are we alive and free, and yet in our flesh we are dead--and this until the Day of the Lord Jesus when the body shall rise and the restoration of all things is accomplished by our God. What St. Paul calls the redemption of our mortal bodies.

-CryptoLutheran

All I read here is excuses for not DESIRING to press into the high calling of Christ Jesus.

Our flesh is not dead. Our old nature is, this is, if we mean business with Christ when we are water baptized. It is then our flesh that must be overcome. It is our flesh which is at war with the new Nature of Christ given us WHEN, or IF we mean business with Him when water baptized. It is by faith WALKED OUT by OUR FLESH that will accomplish the victory. AND: "To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches".
Revelation 3:21-22 (KJV)

In addition are these words: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still".


Revelation 22:16,11 (KJV)
 
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Ormly

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Human beings that are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, when we are saved we are taking on Christ's nature, we are saved INTO Christ. Human? yes, but we are conforming to His image.

It is no longer I that lives, but Christ who lives in me, we were dead and made alive again in Him, raised from our old nature, into His nature.

When that takes place is the issue with me.
 
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Ormly

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You don't have to though, God tells us He will give us a way out of temptation.
Yes, we can sin, He forgives us, but our sin window should be getting smaller and smaller, we should be growing, conforming to Him.
We are told over and over again in the NT that we are saints, not sinners. !
Well stated though i believe I would have a slight adjustment:

We're not self-defeated, [yet] . . . we are possessed of Christ and for that purpose. . . . :thumbsup:
 
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Jake255

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I believe this, Jake: Paul spoke this:: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his". Romans 8:9 (KJV)

I like your comment and understanding re old nature-new nature. I believe that and it has helped me to understand Romans 7, to see what Paul is trying to convey in that our soul has room for only one nature.

Moving on to your above remarks:

Christ saves because we choose Him. However, I am persuaded, from my own life experiences, He chooses us for the new birth of Himself per John 3:3,5. I think this because I see the new birth as being His pledge to us that He would never leave us nor forsake us. So it boils down to me asking this question: after the 'sinners prayer' is finished, How much do I really want Him in my life? I mean, it is not a question of whether or not I was sincere in asking for His salvation but, my life is good. I enjoy it. I want it like it is. BUT, now I find I want Him too. Who or what do you think will win out in the end___Do you see me still as being 'born again'? . . especially given the attitude of the modern church?

I don't know who will win out in the end, we're still running the race, it ain't over until it's over. I would never question another person's born again status, but Paul continually said, for those of you who are "being saved" - on-going, action, process.
 
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Ormly

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I don't know who will win out in the end, we're still running the race, it ain't over until it's over. I would never question another person's born again status, but Paul continually said, for those of you who are "being saved" - on-going, action, process.

Might not: "by their fruit you will know them", be applicable?
 
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