Total Relief

[SPALATIN]

If I left, I would be leaving hundreds of people who never get the Gospel from the pulpit. If I left, they would never have the chance to learn about what is so wrong in the synodical leadership. The ELCA (at least this congregation) is an open mission field that has been abandoned for too long.

Dan,

I like your determination to keep fighting the fight. Perhaps if they were persuaded that what the ELCA leadership is really up to will be damaging to the church as a whole they will understand the need themselves to either leave or keep fighting against the world's culture as the ELCA leadership has become.

God's blessings on your mission

Pax Christi
Scott

 

[Willy]

This phantom "leadership" involves real people who are doing their best to be faithful. They may reach different conclusions than you but please don't dismiss them as a group of conspiracists who long to take the church down some heretical highway. Mark Hanson, our presiding bishop, is one of the most faithful, authentic leaders I have ever known. I am grateful for his heart, his pastoral sensitivity, his willingness to be prophetic. Does he (and I will say I) reach different conclusion than orthodox Missouri Synod people? Of course. WE aren't Missouri Synod people. If we were, we would have joined up with them.

 

[SPALATIN]

This phantom "leadership" involves real people who are doing their best to be faithful. They may reach different conclusions than you but please don't dismiss them as a group of conspiracists who long to take the church down some heretical highway. Mark Hanson, our presiding bishop, is one of the most faithful, authentic leaders I have ever known. I am grateful for his heart, his pastoral sensitivity, his willingness to be prophetic. Does he (and I will say I) reach different conclusion than orthodox Missouri Synod people? Of course. WE aren't Missouri Synod people. If we were, we would have joined up with them.

Ok, Willy, first of all I myself, do not belong to the Missouri Synod since I am not a Pastor or Church worker. I do attend churches in that synod and even have my membership still at one, but do not attend there because my wife does not like it. I even went to an ELS church last week and thoroughly enjoyed it.

As for this leadership in the ELCA. To whom or what are they being faithful? Are they being faithful to the scriptures? They have said that they hold to a historical-critical interpretation of them, but we all know what that means. It means that they can pick and choose which scriptures are inspired and which are not. I don't doubt theirs or your sincerity in what you think you are faithful to, but I doubt the ability of the leadership through this method to really determine what truth is. Is it objective or subjective?

This of course is only my opinion but my opinion is based on what I read and see and hear from those who attend or lead those churches.

 

[ottaia]

Ok, Willy, first of all I myself, do not belong to the Missouri Synod since I am not a Pastor or Church worker. I do attend churches in that synod and even have my membership still at one, but do not attend there because my wife does not like it. I even went to an ELS church last week and thoroughly enjoyed it.

As for this leadership in the ELCA. To whom or what are they being faithful? Are they being faithful to the scriptures? They have said that they hold to a historical-critical interpretation of them, but we all know what that means. It means that they can pick and choose which scriptures are inspired and which are not. I don't doubt theirs or your sincerity in what you think you are faithful to, but I doubt the ability of the leadership through this method to really determine what truth is. Is it objective or subjective?

This of course is only my opinion but my opinion is based on what I read and see and hear from those who attend or lead those churches.

God still speaks. God is speaking to us now. The close vote, IMO, says that we are close to hearing the word but have not heard it yet. Have we let our desires become idols? There are other theologians, not just ELCA theologians, who have found that the scriptures do not say what we have long thought they have said (Bess, Pastor I am Gay,1995, Palmer Publishing, Palmer, Alaska - Buss is a pastor in American Baptist Churches USA). How many times do we have to read Jonah before we begin to heed the voice of the Spirit?

 

[Protoevangel]

God still speaks. God is speaking to us now. The close vote, IMO, says that we are close to hearing the word but have not heard it yet.

Satan and his myriad servants also speak. Be careful which voice you are listening to.

Have we let our desires become idols?

Very pertinent question, very pertinent, indeed.

There are other theologians, not just ELCA theologians, who have found that the scriptures do not say what we have long thought they have said

Yes, we are so much smarter and more spiritual than all those who have come before us, aren't we?

(Bess, Pastor I am Gay,1995, Palmer Publishing, Palmer, Alaska - Buss is a pastor in American Baptist Churches USA). How many times do we have to read Jonah before we begin to heed the voice of the Spirit?

I wonder which spirit you are asking us to listen to, ottaia.

 

[Tetzel]

I have now determined that the whole fuss made over the issue of ordaining gays was a coverup to slip the new hymnal through virtually unnoticed.

LOL

 

[Willy]

Thanks, Ottaia. Nice to have you back. I appreciate your sentiment.

 

[AngelusSax]

Yes, we are so much smarter and more spiritual than all those who have come before us, aren't we?

Maybe we are, maybe we're not. We owe it to ourselves and to our faith to not just blindly follow absolutely everything that came down in an edict before the wheel was invented.

We shouldn't change for change's sake, but we shouldn't be afraid to question and to see if maybe, just maybe, there was a point behind a Scripture that we've missed... lest we be exactly like the Pharisees (which I think many Christians today are)

 

[ottaia]

I wonder which spirit you are asking us to listen to, ottaia.

I could ask the same of you.

 

[SPALATIN]

I could ask the same of you.

I think that Danhead asked first. Balls in your court again Ottaia.

 

[ottaia]

Thank you Scott,

I appreciate the way you take control of all situations.

But actually, you are right. The spirit I listen to has a long red tail and horns. My actual job is to lead people to their damnation. Hey, if you check my journal, you will see that I have already been to Hell. I am thinking of buyind some lake property. I do want to make sure I get good at jetskiing because falling of into a lake can be pretty nasty.

 

[SPALATIN]

Thank you Scott,

I appreciate the way you take control of all situations.

But actually, you are right. The spirit I listen to has a long red tail and horns. My actual job is to lead people to their damnation. Hey, if you check my journal, you will see that I have already been to Hell. I am thinking of buyind some lake property. I do want to make sure I get good at jetskiing because falling of into a lake can be pretty nasty.

NO comment

 

[PuppyforChrist]

MOD HAT ON

There is NO DEBATING allowed in this thread or any thread in the ELCA forum. If you don't agree with something here, take it to the person privatly or discuss it in the main forum. This warning goes out to everyone. Any more flames and debates will end up in closer of this thread.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[KagomeShuko]

AngelusSax,

We ARE the Pharisees of today. We're the ones who go to church! We're often the ones who pray - and even in public! Thus, we ARE the Pharisees. At least, that's how people are going to see us! We have to remember that!

Stein Auf!
Bridget

 

[AngelusSax]

Point taken Bridget. I just fear becoming so rigid with keeping laws that I forget why they're there, or that I forget that I'm supposed to extend grace and mercy as well since it was first shown to me.

 

[Protoevangel]

I wonder which spirit you are asking us to listen to, ottaia.

I could ask the same of you.

You certianlly could, if you wished to do so.

The spirit I listen to has a long red tail and horns. My actual job is to lead people to their damnation.

Not quite what I expected, but if you say so.

 

[Protoevangel]

Maybe we are, maybe we're not. We owe it to ourselves and to our faith to not just blindly follow absolutely everything that came down in an edict before the wheel was invented.

We shouldn't change for change's sake, but we shouldn't be afraid to question and to see if maybe, just maybe, there was a point behind a Scripture that we've missed... lest we be exactly like the Pharisees (which I think many Christians today are)

Oh, absolutely we can question, but if we have the same spirit, we will not end up with a contradictory conclusion.

I just fear becoming so rigid with keeping laws that I forget why they're there, or that I forget that I'm supposed to extend grace and mercy as well since it was first shown to me.

Extend all the grace, mercy and forgiveness in the world. That, we are called to do. Teach correct doctrine, and rebuke all that goes against correct doctrine. This also are we called to do. One cannot replace the other, if one is lost, then the other is but an empty work.

When we give up correct doctrine and only teach grace and mercy. it ceases to be grace and mercy, and becomes licentiousness. When we give up grace and mercy and teach only correct doctrine, it ceases to be correct doctrine, and we do become as the Pharasees. We cannot have one without the other.

 

[JMRE5150]

Extend all the grace, mercy and forgiveness in the world. That, we are called to do. Teach correct doctrine, and rebuke all that goes against correct doctrine. This also are we called to do. One cannot replace the other, if one is lost, then the other is but an empty work.

When we give up correct doctrine and only teach grace and mercy. it ceases to be grace and mercy, and becomes licentiousness. When we give up grace and mercy and teach only correct doctrine, it ceases to be correct doctrine, and we do become as the Pharasees. We cannot have one without the other.

And sadly, mankind is not capable of holding these two sides in equal balance. I dare any Lutheran denomination to show me how they do not continue to put one over the other.

Some put "the rules" of doctrine slightly ahead of grace and mercy, and others put grace and mercy ahead of doctrine. I have yet to see it handled with exact equality.

Its the dog chasing its tail, whether anyone wants to admit it or not.

I say, if you enjoy putting doctrine slightly ahead of grace and mercy, enjoy the sect your in. If you belief grace trumps all, enjoy the sect your in. If not...switch. But either way, dont try and convince me what I should believe. After all, we are ALL sinners, on both sides of the debate. Why should I listen to others who don't share my views?

Call it anti-unification, I dont care. Call me a non-Lutheran...I dont care. Call me a non-christian...I dont care.

This was not meant towards DanHead or any other person here. Its a simple opinion on my behalf. Quite frankly, I'm betting that when judgement day comes, we will all say "But Christ, I did good! I spent my whole life trying to convince everyone else they had your doctrines wrong!" And Christ may very well say "Thats great, but did you love them as you loved yourself?" I dare anyone here to say they could answer with a straight face "Yes m'Lord."

Peace, and I'm out of here for awhile. This website gives me a headache anymore.

JMRE5150

 

[Protoevangel]

And sadly, mankind is not capable of holding these two sides in equal balance. I dare any Lutheran denomination to show me how they do not continue to put one over the other.

Some put "the rules" of doctrine slightly ahead of grace and mercy, and others put grace and mercy ahead of doctrine. I have yet to see it handled with exact equality.

Its the dog chasing its tail, whether anyone wants to admit it or not.

I say, if you enjoy putting doctrine slightly ahead of grace and mercy, enjoy the sect your in. If you belief grace trumps all, enjoy the sect your in. If not...switch. But either way, dont try and convince me what I should believe. After all, we are ALL sinners, on both sides of the debate. Why should I listen to others who don't share my views?

Call it anti-unification, I dont care. Call me a non-Lutheran...I dont care. Call me a non-christian...I dont care.

This was not meant towards DanHead or any other person here. Its a simple opinion on my behalf. Quite frankly, I'm betting that when judgement day comes, we will all say "But Christ, I did good! I spent my whole life trying to convince everyone else they had your doctrines wrong!" And Christ may very well say "Thats great, but did you love them as you loved yourself?" I dare anyone here to say they could answer with a straight face "Yes m'Lord."

Peace, and I'm out of here for awhile. This website gives me a headache anymore.

JMRE5150

You reminded of two quotes of Luther's (quoted from memory):

1) Walking in line with the Gospel is like a drunken man riding on a horse; he is constantly falling off to the left (licentiousness or antinomianism) or to the right (legalism or moralism).

2) If a man can always divide the Law and the Gospel correctly, I will, right here, give him his Doctor's cap, for I admit that I myself cannot always divide Scripture rightly.

You are right Jim; we will not get it all right all of the time, but the sectarianism you propose is dangerous. We need to be able to encourage, challenge and rebuke each other, so that we do not fall entirely into either licentiousness or into legalism.

It is one thing to have a tendency to lean to one side or the other, especially if you are open to correction; that is about the best that one person can expect from another. It is another thing entirely to retreat to either licentiousness or legalism; both are forms of self-justification, both ways of avoiding Christ as your Savior.

Oh, and if anyone answer's with a "But Christ, I did good!", they have missed the point... and the boat.