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No not at all my friend. No one can possibly repent and believe who has not heard the gospel.
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So you would, after all this, have the integrity of the decision of man as the hinge upon which his eternal destiny turns?
Yes, the Gospel can change someone's heart, but it can look like a bit of a play on words. The Gospel is not just a narrative about God and what he has done for us. The Gospel is the Word of God, it is Christ himself. He takes us residence in us, changing us, giving us New Birth, Regeneration. And the Word of God will not return to him void.Can the gospel change someone’s heart? Also what about the type of repentance where a person’s heart is actually changed and they do become a new creation for years? You can’t say for certain that a person like this was not really changed that’s just, forgive me for saying this but, an excuse to patch up the holes in Calvin’s doctrines.
The Gospel is a lot more than a little book with different colored pages and a narrative that goes with each one. The Gospel is Christ himself, and is Salvation, and is the mercy of God, and is wholly the Work of God --not of man.
Heard the words and logic of the narrative we call the gospel? Or heard the Spirit within?No not at all my friend. No one can possibly repent and believe who has not heard the gospel.
Yes, the Gospel can change someone's heart, but it can look like a bit of a play on words. The Gospel is not just a narrative about God and what he has done for us. The Gospel is the Word of God, it is Christ himself. He takes us residence in us, changing us, giving us New Birth, Regeneration. And the Word of God will not return to him void.
He didn't say they were chosen to be members of the eternal Body of Christ either.Amen, but some hear it and are saved and some hear it and believe for a while and fall away and some simply reject it. My point is that Jesus said that some do believe and fall away. He didn’t say they didn’t really believe.
Amen that!Amen God is good
Heard the words and logic of the narrative we call the gospel? Or heard the Spirit within?
He didn't say they were chosen to be members of the eternal Body of Christ either.
That’s a good question. I can only testify from the perspective of a believer. I can’t actually testify from the perspective of a person who heard the gospel & didn’t believe. So I don’t think I could rightly answer that question. I would point out that many in the Old Testament never heard the gospel.
Nor can you say that such a person does not in the end, take his place in Eternal Body of Christ. You CAN say, that if God chooses someone to be a specific member of the Body of Christ, he WILL be that member, and no other will be substituted in his place by his own failure. It is GOD who is faithful --not us. (See TULIP, Perseverance of the Saints).Can the gospel change someone’s heart? Also what about the type of repentance where a person’s heart is actually changed and they do become a new creation for years? You can’t say for certain that a person like this was not really changed that’s just, forgive me for saying this but, an excuse to patch up the holes in Calvin’s doctrines.
And with you, brother.I really enjoyed the discussion but I have to get to bed now it’s pretty late and I have to wake up early. I look forward to further discussion in the future and I embrace you as a fellow loved one in Christ. God be with you.
There are two easy takes on this, neither of which does violence to the text (I like the second):He did say that they did not abide/remain in Him in John 15:6. Also Paul said to the Galatians that they were severed from a Christ and they had fallen from grace. You can’t be severed from Christ if you’ve never been joined to Him. And you can’t fall from grace if it was never bestowed to you.
That's the one of the problems with Calvinism ... the belief dismisses the fact God gave his created beings the freedom to choose. Many many many verses stated by God ... if you do this ... or if you do that ... IF is conditional and based on choice. Many IF's in His Word.
Gods foreknowledge .... God knows what choices people will make ... but He does not make our choices for us.
John 7:17
17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
We are indeed more inclined to sin than to not sin ... but ... IF one chooses Christ then by the power of His Holy Spirit working in the believer He will help them to overcome sin and/or avoid the temptation to sin. We will never be totally perfect in our earthly body ... but God will finish His work in the believer ... and His work continues until our earthly death or until He returns whichever comes first.
Revelation 3:20
Berean Study Bible
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me.
Revelation 3:21
King James Bible
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Philippine 1:6
Berean Study Bible
being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus
Sanctification:
It’s the reciprocation of our love toward God. We are being sanctified with the help of the Holy Spirit (Comforter) that Jesus gives us. Sanctification means to set a part or to make holy. His Holy Spirit helps us in this process to become more like Christ. This is not a one time event; it’s a life long process (we stumble here and there). The process of sanctifying and purifying us (the works that Jesus does in the believer, and is not of ourselves) ... it is HIM working in us and through us. We are separated from the world. We are in the physical world but not of the world spiritually. Our mind (thinking) changes over time and therefore our actions also change. Our faith increases more and more as He faithfully works in us. Hebrews 12:2
Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being (progressive) sanctified (during their earthly life-time).
Jesus is our advocate and judge and will cover us with His blood and will DECLARE us totally innocent of all sin and we will receive eternal life in His kingdom for eternity.
True love requires choice .... true love can not be forced ... one can not force another to love them .... God knows that .... we know that.
God does not force Himself on anyone.
Calvinism dismisses (makes void) Gods sovereign LOVE of mankind who He originally created in His image of Love.
And the greatest of these is Love.
God IS love.
God is the Greatest! AMEN!!!!!!
Amen my friend amen but what of the power of the gospel. Is it not God’s calling? Is the gospel not powerful enough to bring about repentance? I believe it is if the person is willing.
I feel like I need to ask this question again just by itself because I feel that it has been overlooked.
Is Jezebel capable of repentance?
“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
Revelation 2:20-21 NASB
Now if this were true then John 15:6 would be impossible. As well as Galatians 5:4. Let us not forget Jesus’ words in John 6:44.
How can you account for these teachings? The secret is in John 6:37.
It can look this way, it can be made to look this way. But if fifty-percent of even married Christians are getting divorced . . . may be how they saw the ones they married was how things were made to look, not how things really were going to cook. So, we can see people the way we are able to, indeed. So, I pray to be ready in case God has me find out the real truth about anyone; and will I really love them, then?Like for example a person who actually has actually been born again and has become a new creation for several years and later doubts his faith becoming either agnostic or even atheist all together. Then there are some who’ve been born again and years later possibly after a tragic event have developed a hatred for God. These kind of scenarios exist in real life.
But Jesus does say He keeps His sheep. So, there is a verbal challenge, here, I would say.Jesus said that some will not abide in Him and only those who endure to the end will be saved.
And I already knew ones could say it only meant a specific group whom the Christians reading would know John is talking about . . . and now ones we could know the Holy Spirit is talking about, whom we know.I know you didn’t mention 1 John 2:19 I just wanted to include this into this explanation as a preemptive rebuttal because it’s very often used to explain why a person turns away from God.
There are two easy takes on this, neither of which does violence to the text (I like the second):
1. There are many graces, though only one redemption, one regeneration, one Gospel. It is, for example, a common grace that though man is by nature totally depraved, the deeds of man are restrained by God. Here Paul could be meaning by 'grace' the mere opportunity offered by the Gospel, that they were abandoning, or perhaps a lifestyle of walking according to the Gospel, as it is effective also in restraining, and good deeds DO (particularly, obedience, does) change habits of thinking.
2. I think Paul here is referring to a simple use of that phrase, restating what he had said earlier --that they had abandoned the Gospel in favor of works. I don't think he was saying that they had lost their Salvation nor that they were no longer Regenerated. (In fact, he would not have written the way he did, I believe, if he thought they were irrevocably lost; I think he was spanking them --something a father does if he loves his misbehaving children).
I don't think that's what the intention of the gospel is for. Is the gospel gods book or is it a book about god? Is it god revevealing himself to the creation for his own glory and purposes or is it a manual for the creation to use to save themself?
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