Total depravity and children

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Little children aren't taught to lie, steal or fuss when they don't get their way, yet they do these very things. Homeschool them, they still have the inherent urge to rebel.

No. (if I may post this in this section; if not, just delete this)

Or rather, "train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is older he will not depart far from it". and "strict discipline (training) (in truth only) is NECESSARY for life"

Few children are raised in the way they should go. Thankfully I've seen about a dozen or more who were raised right, and they would not lie, cheat, steal, etc they did not rebel.
The FOOLISHNESS that is bound up inside each child was handled correctly, as written, so it did not destroy their life.

 

[anna ~ grace]

@ReformedFolks

Please forgive the joke. It was meant in kindness and humor, not malice.

I know you guys believe what you do because you're convinced of it, and find it reasonable. Sorry. Forgive the comment, and hope you guys have a good Advent, and Christmas.

 

[hedrick]

Total depravity is more than the idea that everyone sins, a fact that I think all Christians agree upon (except a few in the Holiness tradition). It's the idea that we are so corrupted that we are unable to do anything towards salvation, even respond to God's grace, until God intervenes and regenerates us.

The fact that little children are sometimes selfish is consistent with the general Christian idea that everyone sins, but interpreting it as an example of total depravity depends upon a theological scheme that most Christians don't agree with.

 

[Not David]

"It's the idea that we are so corrupted that we are unable to do anything towards salvation, even respond to God's grace, until God intervenes and regenerates us"

Can Orthodox tell me if this is something you believe?

 

[hedrick]

"It's the idea that we are so corrupted that we are unable to do anything towards salvation, even respond to God's grace, until God intervenes and regenerates us"

Can Orthodox tell me if this is something you believe?

My apologies. I should have identified that definition as from Reformed theology, as is the term "total depravity." You can find some basis for it in Augustine, though as far as I know not the term. It's not part of the Orthodox tradition. Current Reformed Christians don't necessarily accept it either, though traditionalist groups certainly do.

 

[AMM]

"It's the idea that we are so corrupted that we are unable to do anything towards salvation, even respond to God's grace, until God intervenes and regenerates us"

Can Orthodox tell me if this is something you believe?

Answering as a neophyte - it sounds okay (not necessarily good) to me except the “even respond to God’s grace”. After all, isn’t God’s grace his intervention to regenerate us, and what gives us the ability to respond to him?

But again, neophyte here. So I’ll happily be corrected by someone.

 

[charsan]

I heard from some family members that one example of total depravity is children being selfish. They don't even use reason but they think only about themselves. What do you guys think?

I think tha kind of thinking is extremely bad

 

[Not David]

Fr. @ArmyMatt Why is Total Depravity problematic?

 

[hedrick]

I think tha kind of thinking is extremely bad

I would think that under classic Christian theology (particularly in the west), all selfish behavior would be a result of the fall. Including children. Of course not everyone would characterize the results of the fall as total depravity.

Note by the way that most Calvinists (the main proponents of total depravity), while they consider things like selfishness in children to be results of original sin, also think all children are saved. But saved by grace, not because they're innocent.

Remember, total depravity doesn't mean that everyone is damned. Rather, it means that only by God's grace renewing us can we do anything towards salvation, including responding to God. It also doesn't mean that everyone is as evil as possible. Calvinists understand that non-Christians can do things that benefit others. It's just that these things always reflect imperfect motivation, and thus don't save anyone. The term "civil righteousness" is used to describe acts that are good for others, and that society and governments should encourage.

Most current Reformed people prefer the term "total inability" to "total depravity." Total depravity sounds like everyone is as immoral as possible. Total inability reflects what it actually means: that we are unable to do anything relevant to salvation on our own. God must first regenerate us, allowing us to respond to him.

[Because the question was about total depravity, which is a traditional Reformed concept, I'm describing the traditional Reformed viewpoint. This is not my personal view. This would appear to be the wrong forum for that.]

 

[ArmyMatt]

Fr. @ArmyMatt Why is Total Depravity problematic?

because man is able to choose the good. our freedom is a gift given by God which we never lose.

 

[Not David]

because man is able to choose the good. our freedom is a gift given by God which we never lose.

What about faith being a gift from God?

 

[ArmyMatt]

What about faith being a gift from God?

what about it? sorry, not sure I follow

 

[Not David]

what about it? sorry, not sure I follow

That we don't believe unless God gives us faith

 

[ArmyMatt]

That we don't believe unless God gives us faith

sure, but that doesn't mean we can't seek Him if He is out there.

 

[Not David]

sure, but that doesn't mean we can't seek Him if He is out there.

How can we seek Him if we don't have faith?

 

[Lukaris]

The early Christians seem to have seen children as mostly innocent as accounted for in an early letter of Aristides to the emperor Hadrian ( 125 AD).In chapter 15 (XV) it is stated that they actually gave thanks when a child died early in that the chid passed through this world almost sinless: The Apology of Aristides the Philosopher

Aristides later became Christian & is remembered as St. Aristides.

 

[ArmyMatt]

How can we seek Him if we don't have faith?

because faith isn't static, it's a dynamic walk with God to the kingdom.

 

[Not David]

because faith isn't static, it's a dynamic walk with God to the kingdom.

Could you explain more Father? I grew up learning that faith is an specifc "thing" given by God.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Could you explain more Father? I grew up learning that faith is an specifc "thing" given by God.

faith is hope for things unseen and it comes by hearing, so however the Gospel comes to you (even if that's your curiosity) that initiates how your walk with God begins. then you choose whether or not to follow.

 

[The.Cartographer]

I heard from some family members that one example of total depravity is children being selfish. They don't even use reason but they think only about themselves. What do you guys think?

Total depravity is way worse than a kid being selfish.