Torture

JerryChristian · May 12, 2009

Unforgiveness is more of a torture to the person holding the unforgiveness. The Bible teaches that if we do not forgive, then we cannot be forgiven!

JerryChristian · May 12, 2009

What if that human being is causing great bodily harm to you or one of your loved ones. Say your mother for instance. What are you going to do, standby and watch because you do not want to hurt another human being?

JerryChristian · May 12, 2009

Spoken like a true pacifist! What if someone is intent on raping and murdering you, are you gonna fight back or lay there and take it?

JerryChristian · May 12, 2009

Regarding your stance on abortion. Most Christians agree that abortion is murder because life starts at conception. So are you saying that if we clean it up and santize it in a medical facility, it's ok to murder? So is it your position that the imposition of a pregnancy of the mother is far more important than the life of a helpless, harmless, child? According to your assessment one persons health or well-being is much more important than another persons life. Don't you bellieve that all men are created equal. If so, then why do you condemn the helpless child to a torturous death. In a majority of abortions the fetus is torn apart limb from limb. Sharp objects are stuck into their brain to kill them. And in many cases they are just torn apart and extracted from the womb. Is that what you call equality? How can you be so sympathetic to a terrorist who may be tortured but belieev the murder of a fetus is ok?

JerryChristian · May 12, 2009

What is your stance on abortion. Isn't it the worst form of torture?

JerryChristian · May 12, 2009

What in the world does Dick Cheney's faith have to do with this. First of all do you really know Dick Cheney? If not how do you judge his faith? I've met Dick Cheney, and I don't know, so how is it you know?

JerryChristian · May 12, 2009

It is a proven fact that the information gained freom terrorist suspects have prevented many terrorist attcks here in this country. Don't you watch anything but MSNBC?

SUNSTONE · May 12, 2009

Jerry that's why I didn't continue this conversation.
The guy just ran off his mouth on about 20 different topics.

I'm not getting involved with that can of worms.

Svt4Him · May 13, 2009

chriscim said:
I read an article on CNN indicating that Christians believe torture in the interest of national security is okay at a higher rate than non-Christians. This doesn't surprise me and I'm sure some who are reading this believe torture is okay.

I'll tell you where this comes from. A large part of sincere US Christians align themselves with the Republican party, feeling that it best represents their Christian beliefs. That's fine, but I think in doing so, we sometimes adopt ALL of the values of that party.

Face it, the Republican Party is as much a worldly entity as the Democratic Party. They both believe and do many things that are at odds with the Christian Faith. We are called to come out of the world. Don't let a political party influence your beliefs. Zero percent of Christians should be in favor of torture just as zero percent should be in favor of abortion.

Chris

Can you post a link please?

Nadiine · May 13, 2009

JerryChristian said:
It is a proven fact that the information gained freom terrorist suspects have prevented many terrorist attcks here in this country. Don't you watch anything but MSNBC?

MSNBC was found to be one of the most extreme liberal of
all the networks
Anyone living on that news diet will be sorely uninformed on the
truth.

Nadiine · May 13, 2009

SUNSTONE said:
Jerry that's why I didn't continue this conversation.
The guy just ran off his mouth on about 20 different topics.

I'm not getting involved with that can of worms.

I was going to, but maybe I won't bother now.

thanks

Nadiine · May 13, 2009

JerryChristian said:
Spoken like a true pacifist! What if someone is intent on raping and murdering you, are you gonna fight back or lay there and take it?

actually, that's just the opposite of love... & they just don't see it.

JerryChristian · May 13, 2009

MostRadicalManEver said:
Christians do not support torture.

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Can you tell me how this relates to torture? Torture to gain evidence of a terrorist attack that could kill thousands or millions is not about vengeance, it's about gaining valuable intelligence.

Mat 5:39 but I say unto you, resist not him that is evil: but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

That might fit you, but what if that person is trying to kill and rape your daughter, sister, or mother. Are you just going to stand there. Then why is it that the Bible says, "Greater love has no man than to lay down his life for another?"

Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

1Pe 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

Mat 5:43-44 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. (44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Rom 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Lets see you equate dishonesty, accusations, lack of love, cursings, all to torture somehow. You might try utilizing scripture in it's proper context.

Let me illustrate how Scripture taken out of context works.

One verse of Scripture states "Judas hung himself". Another states, "go thou and do likewise."

Any person can take verses out of context to support a rediculous claim.

So you think that if we could avoid a terrorist attack through torture that would kill thousands of American lives, you'd rather let them kill the Americans of which you may be one! Is that correct?

Nurbz · May 13, 2009

I would just like to add that it seems the Iraq war was the result of torture derived information. That whole mess is proof torture doesn't work.

washingtonpost.com

ROMANS 12:19-21 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Matthew 5: 38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

sounds like pacifism to me

Nadiine · May 14, 2009

I dislike torture and any pain for anybody - however, I do believe
that limited types of it has its place in some circumstances.

But I'll add this, the use of some of these reference verses to refute
torture is bogus.
They aren't "repaying evil for evil" in torture - they are using torture
to try to save lives and wipe out an evil enemy who is hell-bent on
killing masses of innocent people at any cost, by any means.
This enemy has the earmarks of the pagan nations God drove out
from the Israelites - they LIVE to plot and wipe out the innocent.

God commanded the armies of the OT - and God didn't even spare women
or children in some camps where He led Israel. And that God is the
same God today - the God of pure love and justice.

We've warped and perverted God's love today into our PC version of
love which is a false concept (ie. pacifism) where it is actually
UNLOVING to the potential victims and cowardly and unprotective.

Pacifism shows love towards the evil over the innocent.

SUNSTONE · May 14, 2009

1Every (A)person is to be in (B)subjection to the governing authorities For (C)there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
3For (D)rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
4for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an (E)avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
5Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also (F)for conscience' sake.

In Acts a couple was killed by the Spirit for not doing what they purposed in their hearts.

People just pick and choose what verses they want with out taking the bible as a whole.
I don't see churches out there fighting this war, but the government and Romans puts it clear that this is a judgment from God on evil actions of men.

JerryChristian · May 14, 2009

Nurbz said:
suggesting christians actually behave like christ and challenging hypocrisy isn't christian hmm?

You certainly could take a close look at your own hypocrisy! Is abortion the worst kind of torture, yet by your own words you supported a presidential candidate who supports abortion rights.

And you never answer these serious questions. Don't you have an answer?

SUNSTONE · May 14, 2009

I'm behaving like Christ, and I'm not torturing anyone.

Nurbz · May 14, 2009

SUNSTONE said:
In Acts a couple was killed by the Spirit for not doing what they purposed in their hearts.

People just pick and choose what verses they want with out taking the bible as a whole.
I don't see churches out there fighting this war, but the government and Romans puts it clear that this is a judgment from God on evil actions of men.

Right, judgement from GOD, not from man. Vengance belongs to god, thats why he commanded us to love our enemies and not mistreat them.

JerryChristian said:
You certainly could take a close look at your own hypocrisy! Is abortion the worst kind of torture, yet by your own words you supported a presidential candidate who supports abortion rights.

And you never answer these serious questions. Don't you have an answer?

I don't remember saying I agreed with abortion or that I was a democrat. I don't belong to political parties for the same reason I don't belong to a denomination.

See, politicizing faith and the bible, and taking one's spiritual cues from a political party has made people assume that when people say or take a stance on a certian subject, it labels them a republican, democrat, liberal, or conservative. Politics has poisoned our faith.

Nadiine said:
I dislike torture and any pain for anybody - however, I do believe
that limited types of it has its place in some circumstances.

But I'll add this, the use of some of these reference verses to refute
torture is bogus.
They aren't "repaying evil for evil" in torture - they are using torture
to try to save lives and wipe out an evil enemy who is hell-bent on
killing masses of innocent people at any cost, by any means.
This enemy has the earmarks of the pagan nations God drove out
from the Israelites - they LIVE to plot and wipe out the innocent.

God commanded the armies of the OT - and God didn't even spare women
or children in some camps where He led Israel. And that God is the
same God today - the God of pure love and justice.

But did you read the link? Torture gave us false information which led us into a horrible war.

And yes, God's command to commit genocide, and his acceptance of Moses' command to slaughter children for the sins of the fathers, married women, and slavery and rape of children at the hands of the Isrealite army is something that tests my faith and challenges us by non-believers. However, there was no command by God to torture to put someone in deliberate agony.

FreeinChrist · May 14, 2009

MOD HAT
Oh good grief

This thread is closing down for review and a COOL DOWN!

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